Have fantasy novels gotten "better" since D&D?

[Raven Crowking]

Side Note: There's a bit in a Jane Yolen book about fantasy writing (Touch Magic, if memory serves) that talks about the price of magic in good fantasy systems. Her argument is, in general, that magic should exact some price....there should be some form of sacrifice involved in bending the world's rules. Good guys pay the price themselves. Bad guys force others to pay it.

She also mentions D&D (though not by name) and its magic system, and how damaging using an analog to its magic system is when trying to craft good fantasy.

Actually, that book is a pretty good read, and should be of interest to anyone considering writing their own magic rules.


RC

 

[WayneLigon]

Side Note: There's a bit in a Jane Yolen book about fantasy writing (Touch Magic .... She also mentions D&D (though not by name) and its magic system, and how damaging using an analog to its magic system is when trying to craft good fantasy.

Actually, that book is a pretty good read, and should be of interest to anyone considering writing their own magic rules.

I'll definately be looking that up.

 

[Thunderfoot]

Your threshhold for "well written" and "thought out extremely well" must be far, far lower than mine.
They are fun, light, entertaining reads on a popular level, but the writing doesn't sparkle or shine. Nor are they well thought out, IMHO at least.
RC

In context RC, in context... remember they are aimed at pre-teen and young teen readers, not old farts, though there are quite a few of those at the all night wait up and buy sessions. Nothing funnier (or scarier) than seeing fat comic book guy (or girl) waiting in line dressed up as a wizard behind a nine year old in suitable evening attire.

Yes, I realize that Asprin no longer has anything to do with Thieves' World, but he did set the precedence on which they were founded... I didn't know he was writing MYTH INC again, I will have to see if he follows the pattern and kills it by overdoing it, or if the break was just long enough to keep it fresh.

As for the newer writers Hussar, I will wait to pass judgement on their works to see if they too fall into the 'established' pattern of not quitting while they are ahead. I'm really not trying to tick off people, I'm just old and jaded, that's all.

 

[Hussar]

As for the newer writers Hussar, I will wait to pass judgement on their works to see if they too fall into the 'established' pattern of not quitting while they are ahead. I'm really not trying to tick off people, I'm just old and jaded, that's all

What authors quit while they were ahead?

Tolkein? Nope, wrote to the day he died. Leiber? dead. Lovecraft? dead. Moorcock? Nope, still writing. Andre Norton? dead. Frank Herbert? dead. REH? dead. Pretty much any of the great fantasy authors and SF authors for that matter have cranked out books as fast as they could until they died. That's part of being a writer for a living. If you don't publish more books, you don't make any more money.

Melan - I still stand by the statement that there are any number of fantastic fantasy authors today that can hold their own with any golden age author. To add to the list, Tad Williams, Terry Pratchett, Stephen King, Guy Gavriel Kay, Robin Hobb and a horde of others.

I don't deny that there's lots of crap out there. But, then again, I don't read crap anymore. I actually look at reviews and whatnot before reading a book, so I avoid a lot of the crap.

 

[William drake]

Time to make a few million enemies....
It depends on what you mean better; If you meant the Dragonlance novels and the Forgotten Realms books then...NO! As much as TSR and the WotC have done for the hobby of the game, their novels just plain blow chunks of green crap!

I stopped reading a lot of fantasy novels becuase they are nothing more than over-glorfied gamer fiction. Of course this is a generalization and there are a few books that I have read that were advertised as gamer fiction so I knew what I was expecting before I picked it up. I have a friend that has tried to get me to read the DL novels (I have a think against Weis/Hickman ever since The Darksword Trilogy - great books, STUPID ending.) and I finally relented, yep, same old, same old. A novel that is advertised as a novel should be just that, a novel, not a long labourious gamer fiction reading. I can get that on websites like ENworld (not the laborious part, the gamer fiction part.) Heck I'm even writing a novilation based on my current campaign, but I have no allusions of fame and fortune just because its fantasy; my buddy thinks its high literature, I think its something to pass the time on Tuesday.

I know this is a generalization, but for the most part I would say that fantasy has suffered. There is a lot of it now (which there wasn't in the day), but quantity doesn't equal quality. LotR is a great trilogy because of the significance of it, if it were written today it would be panned as long, unwieldy and too slow, but would it be any less great? A modern publisher would say yes. As much as I hate Harry Potter, I must admit that they are well written and thought out extrememly well. The Wheel of Time was great until about book seven, now I just want him to finish before he dies; I'm committed so he had better be too! Brooks, Eddings, McCafferrey, and Lackey were awesome until they forgot how to stop.

Unfortunately this kind of ties into my rant on anime, whatever is popular must be mass produced and watered down immediately if not sooner. Fantasy was good once, it was innovative, humorous, horrifiying and stretched the limits of our imaginiations; no its just a rehash of whatever was released last week. I appreciate a few authors like Robert Lynn Asprin that figured out what was fresh and when to quit (MYTH INC) and a new way to keep the same old fresh (Thieves' World), if this is what fantasy can aspire to, then yes, it is moving forward, otherwise, we're stuck in the mud and have four flat tires to boot.

Preach on brother preach on. Most of it is pulp garbage...and I can't stand it. About Wheel of TIme, if you've read DUNE..then you know what I'm saying.

 

[MerricB]

What authors quit while they were ahead?

Tolkein? Nope, wrote to the day he died. Leiber? dead. Lovecraft? dead. Moorcock? Nope, still writing. Andre Norton? dead. Frank Herbert? dead. REH? dead. Pretty much any of the great fantasy authors and SF authors for that matter have cranked out books as fast as they could until they died. That's part of being a writer for a living. If you don't publish more books, you don't make any more money.

...and when you look back, you look back at their great works, not the bad works, of which they usually have several.

Who reads Father Giles of Ham? Hardly anyone... Heck, Shakespeare has a slew of plays, but only about 10 are really well known.

Melan - I still stand by the statement that there are any number of fantastic fantasy authors today that can hold their own with any golden age author. To add to the list, Tad Williams, Terry Pratchett, Stephen King, Guy Gavriel Kay, Robin Hobb and a horde of others.

Heh. My list of current "Great Writers":
* Lois McMaster Bujold. More Hugo awards for best novel than anyone but Heinlein, primarily for her SF works, but one for The Paladin of Souls, a fantasy work. Well worth reading.
* Steven Brust - possibly the most literary of current authors, at least in his appreciation of the art. Writes really good books as well.
* Guy Gavriel Key - although Kay gives Brust a good run for his money on the literary stakes... best work is Tigana, but most of his novels are really worth reading
* J.K.Rowlings - because.
* Terry Pratchett - his works began as satire on fantasy. They're now satires on life, and probably has the best chance of being real literature - in the same way as Swift.

There's a lot of other writers that I enjoy and look for their next books, though. (Anne Bishop, Terry Goodkind, Robert Jordan, Katherine Kerr, Robin Hobb, and Ray Feist, to name a few...)

Cheers!

Cheers!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Who reads Father Giles of Ham? Hardly anyone...

Very funny & fun piece of writing, that.

* Lois McMaster Bujold. More Hugo awards for best novel than anyone but Heinlein, primarily for her SF works, but one for The Paladin of Souls, a fantasy work. Well worth reading.

Don't know her; I'll have to see.

* Steven Brust - possibly the most literary of current authors, at least in his appreciation of the art. Writes really good books as well.

Yup. Good, solid writer.

* Guy Gavriel Key - although Kay gives Brust a good run for his money on the literary stakes... best work is Tigana, but most of his novels are really worth reading

Kay is definately readable.

* J.K.Rowlings - because.

A fun read, a page-turner, but nowhere near as accomplished as some seem to think.

* Terry Pratchett - his works began as satire on fantasy. They're now satires on life, and probably has the best chance of being real literature - in the same way as Swift.

Meh. I enjoy the occasional Pratchett, but his satire is hit-and-miss to me.

There's a lot of other writers that I enjoy and look for their next books, though. (Anne Bishop, Terry Goodkind, Robert Jordan, Katherine Kerr, Robin Hobb, and Ray Feist, to name a few...)

Goodkind? Goodkind!?!

Yuck!


RC

 

[Thunderfoot]

What authors quit while they were ahead?

<SNIP>

BWAHAHAHAHAHA - uh oh, I think I peed myself.

 

[Thunderfoot]

You know, after re-reading this through, I know of an author that isn't on the list that I have to put up here as a recommendation - Louis L'more - yep that western guy, After falling into a slump about cowboys he broke away to do something fresh, he created a 'fantasy' series with deep historical foundations runnning underneath it. No sorcery, really but a lot of swordplay. It was called 'The Walking Drum'. Maybe that's what all these authors need to do, switch genres for a few years and then come back to the trough for another drink.

 

[Hussar]

BWAHAHAHAHAHA - uh oh, I think I peed myself.

Color me confused. Not sure why that was funny. All of the authors I listed wrote until the day they died, or thereabouts. Your point that the best authors quit while they are ahead seems a bit off.