D&D 5E (2014) Have the designers lost interest in short rests?

So. Regardless of whether you think it is wise or has any given probability of success, how would you suggest fans who do care about reasonably well-designed rules act toward WotC to try to change this situation in the future? (By which I mean "do nothing becaude it won't happen" isn't really a welcome or useful response.) Because it seems as though three-ish years of public playtesting were almost entirely a waste of time at this point.
Oh, come now, that's taking it rather far. In most ways the system works quite nicely. Considering 5E was developed by a skeleton crew, back in the days of 4E's decline when it looked like Hasbro might just put D&D on a shelf and forget about it, and they were trying to simultaneously woo back Pathfinder and old-school gamers while hanging onto the remaining 4E player base... I think they did pretty darn well.

This particular mechanic is kinda busted, yes. And I do think the designers should fix it, either in 6E or in a "variant mechanic that is clearly intended to supersede the original one" like some of the stuff in Tasha's. Big picture, though, it's not the end of the world.

As far as what we the fans should do, my solution has been to talk up my personal house rule (like I've been doing in this thread) when the topic comes up, and hope it spreads and eventually someone at Wizards thinks, "Hmm, that's a good idea." And if I see a survey about rest mechanics, I'll make my preferences known. I don't think there's a huge amount one individual player can do to shift WotC's strategy.
 

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Has anyone made a list of classes and subclasses that have a short rest-dependent mechanic?
It's not that simple because different classes & even archetypes within a class benefit differently. One extreme example is that moon druids recover wildshape on long or short rest & depend heavily on those for doing just about anything while land druids just geta couple spell slots. Ignoring the fact that moon druids tend to consume spell slots to stay in wildhape it's a factor that makes it difficult to say if druid is long or sort rest depenndant even if it's mostly a long rest class no matter what.
 

I think it does look like "proficiency bonus times per long rest" seems to now be taking up some of the more-than-once-daily design space that "once per short rest" formerly was more prevalent in. Perusing the UA, the places I see the designers playing with short rest these days are more often things explicitly related to taking some midday downtime like a feat to cook special food during that break, an alternate Ranger ability to remove exhaustion with it, or a spirit bard ability to conduct a ritual during it.
 

Oh, come now, that's taking it rather far. In most ways the system works quite nicely. Considering 5E was developed by a skeleton crew, back in the days of 4E's decline when it looked like Hasbro might just put D&D on a shelf and forget about it, and they were trying to simultaneously woo back Pathfinder and old-school gamers while hanging onto the remaining 4E player base... I think they did pretty darn well.
Even getting people to admit that 5e has a skeleton crew is like pulling teeth, so no, I don't really feel like I'm going overboard here. They took three years to design a game. Surely something as fundamental as "how many Things To Do each time-period" being significantly off,* yet also being a core idea around which a historical class design problem (martial or mostly-martial characters vs. full-caster characters) was meant to be solved, is worth noting as a serious design fault that somehow never came up. They spent months faffing about with mechanics that ended up entirely or mostly in the bin (such as Specialties or the Expertise Die), took years to make a Fighter that even Mearls himself wasn't entirely satisfied with, etc.

I'm not trying to say their work is garbage, but it's a pretty flawed work for the amount of time, expertise, and attention it got. I'm not a professional game designer by any means, so maybe there are externalities to the job that I'm not aware of, but it's just a little hard to see how this skeleton crew made a game with a much bigger budget than something like 13A did (which had a smaller crew, I'm almost certain) which has far fewer, and much more easily-addressed, points of concern. (Over-generic backgrounds, not really liking Icon stuff, and weak/overly-passive Paladins being the main faults I've seen brought up.)

*As in, the math does work out, on average, with an average of just over 7 actual combats and 2-3 short rests per long rest; at that point the Champion's "crit-chance-only" damage bonus actually catches up. All data I've seen from actual play, and Crawford's own words WRT the "class feature variants" doc, indicate that the average is much closer to 3-4 actual combats per day and 1 or maybe 2 short rests, something that skews the balance of the game very strongly toward already-powerful classes like Paladin and Bard.

Big picture, though, it's not the end of the world.
Reverse catastrophization isn't a particularly strong argument. That it isn't the end of the world is not a reason to shy away from frank criticism. This is a fundamental element of the game, upon which the design of numerous player options depend, which leads to continuing unfortunate and frustrating trends (like "classes that primarily use spells consistently do more than classes with none" and "the options meant to be given to new players to help draw them into the game also tend to be the weakest ones.") Calling that out, and asking how it could have happened with almost three full years of public playtesting and months more of internal playtesting, is not Chicken Little prophesying the collapse of the heavens, it is a genuine statement of surprise and frustration as to how this process produced this result.

As far as what we the fans should do, my solution has been to talk up my personal house rule (like I've been doing in this thread) when the topic comes up, and hope it spreads and eventually someone at Wizards thinks, "Hmm, that's a good idea." And if I see a survey about rest mechanics, I'll make my preferences known. I don't think there's a huge amount one individual player can do to shift WotC's strategy.
Sure. But "do a good thing and hope, eventually, someone in power pays attention" is not exactly an inspiring message of change either.
 

I may have missed a couple, but I think this is all from the non-UA, non-Wildemount classes. Do note, however, that the simple number of features doesn't tell you much.

Barbarian:
  • Core: Relentless Rage (11)
  • Ancestral Guardian: Consult the Spirits (10)
Bard:
  • Core: Song of Rest (2), Bardic Inspiration/Font of Inspiration (5)
  • Glamour: Enthralling Performance (3), Unbreakable Majesty (14)
  • Whispers: Words of Terror (3), Mantle of Whispers (6)
Cleric:
  • Core: Channel Divinity (2)
  • Knowledge: Visions of the Past (17)
Druid:
  • Core: Wild Shape (2), Wild Shape Improvement (4), Wild Shape Improvement (8)
  • Dreams: Hearth of Moonlight and Shadow (6)
  • Land: Natural Recovery* (2)
  • Shepherd: Spirit Totem (2)
Fighter:
  • Core: Second Wind (1), Action Surge (2)
  • Arcane Archer: Arcane Shot (3)
  • Battle Master: Combat Superiority (3)
Monk:
  • Core: Ki (2), everything powered by ki (searching the DDB page for the word "ki" is much less useful than searching for "short", so I'm not going to try and list all the ki-powered features; it's basically the entire class)
Paladin:
  • Core: Channel Divinity (2)
Ranger:
  • Horizon Walker: Detect Portal (3), Ethereal Step (7)
  • Slayer: Magic-User's Nemesis (11)
Rogue:
  • Core: Stroke of Luck (20)
  • Swashbuckler: Master Duelist (17)
Sorcerer:
  • Core: Sorcerous Restoration (20)
  • Divine Soul: Favored by the Gods (1)
  • Storm: Wind Soul (18)
Warlock:
  • Core: Pact Magic (1), some invocations (2)
  • Archfey: Fey Presence (1), Misty Escape (6), Dark Delirium (14)
  • Celestial: Celestial Resistance (10)
  • Fiend: Dark One's Own Luck (6)
  • Great Old One: Entropic Ward (6)
  • Hexblade: Hexblade's Curse (1)
  • Undying: Indestructible Life (14)
Wizard:
  • Core: Arcane Recovery* (1), Signature Spells (20)
  • Bladesinger: Bladesong (2)
  • Illusion: Illusory Self (10)
  • Transmutation: Shapechanger (10)
  • War Magic: Power Surge (6)
* indicates features which are capped at one per long rest, but require a short rest to use.
 

Reverse catastrophization isn't a particularly strong argument. That it isn't the end of the world is not a reason to shy away from frank criticism. This is a fundamental element of the game, upon which the design of numerous player options depend, which leads to continuing unfortunate and frustrating trends (like "classes that primarily use spells consistently do more than classes with none" and "the options meant to be given to new players to help draw them into the game also tend to be the weakest ones.") Calling that out, and asking how it could have happened with almost three full years of public playtesting and months more of internal playtesting, is not Chicken Little prophesying the collapse of the heavens, it is a genuine statement of surprise and frustration as to how this process produced this result.


Sure. But "do a good thing and hope, eventually, someone in power pays attention" is not exactly an inspiring message of change either.
I've come to distrust the playtesting process. It seems it's mostly release something, then a month later have a survey. How much playtesting has actually happenned in that time? (And how many of the survey s responses are not based on playtesting but on reading?)
 

I've come to distrust the playtesting process. It seems it's mostly release something, then a month later have a survey. How much playtesting has actually happenned in that time? (And how many of the survey s responses are not based on playtesting but on reading?)
The survey wording tends to be pretty bad too. Aside from that recent post-covid mea survey they rarely if ever bother asking questions that admit understanding GM of new thing, player across from new thing and player of new thing are all different positions that could dry well feel completely different about a new thing "is it fun to play new thing" tends to be the only real concern
 

It's not that simple because different classes & even archetypes within a class benefit differently. One extreme example is that moon druids recover wildshape on long or short rest & depend heavily on those for doing just about anything while land druids just geta couple spell slots. Ignoring the fact that moon druids tend to consume spell slots to stay in wildhape it's a factor that makes it difficult to say if druid is long or sort rest depenndant even if it's mostly a long rest class no matter what.
Right, but I'm not concerned with that aspect (yet), I only wanted to know if anyone has put together a list and was willing to share it. Once a list is compiled we can then analyze and compare them, but having a comprehensive list should be a first step.
 

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