D&D 5E Have we misunderstood the shield and sword fighter (or warrior)?

[Oofta]

Dex + Shield synergizes with the Dex save part of the Shield Master feat, but not with the bonus action shove part of it. There's just no winning.

The bonus to dex save from Shield Master only applies if you're the sole target which only applies to 4 spells that I know of. I guess using your reaction to negate damage if you saved is okay, but as you state it primarily helps dex builds.

It's a pretty pointless feat for the saving throw bonus, if your DM rules that you can't do the shove until the end of your turn it's worth even less.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

It's a pretty pointless feat for the saving throw bonus, if your DM rules that you can't do the shove until the end of your turn it's worth even less.

At least it's a solid way to get a bonus action shove for a grappling build. You can get your thing going from lv1.

 

[Oofta]

At least it's a solid way to get a bonus action shove for a grappling build. You can get your thing going from lv1.

According to sage advice you have to take the bonus action after you have completed your attack action. So ... I still think it's pretty pointless. If you're doing a grapple you'd have to, what, make an attack with a weapon then put the weapon away and then grapple? I suppose that could work, not sure I see the point.

I rule that it works just like bonus action spells, as long as you take the attack action on your turn the bonus action can come at any time.

 

[Horwath]

That sounds inherently much better than Two-Weapon fighter with Dual Wielder feat. And by the time you get a feat at level 4, you're not far off from your extra attack at level 5 so i'm taking this in consideration too.

You get a +1 to one ability score
Shield in itself is +1 AC over TWF+DW
Since you get to use your Str bonus without spending a fighting style, you can use dueling for +2 damage on your main attack (so that's +4 assuming extra attack)
your magical "off hand weapon" also gives bonus to AC and Athletics checks
all that for a drop from 1d8 to 1d6 for your off-hand weapon.

And yes, TWF+DW is fully dex-compatible while this imposes Str on the bonus action attack (main attacks can still use Dex). Still, too powerful for 2014 benchmarks. The Shield Master feat is actually not bad, even with the erratum that bonus action shove/trip must be done after attacks.

[edit] even if the problem lies with TWF, it's still powerful compared to Polearm Master and other feats/abilities allowing attack on bonus action.

1. PAM is 10ft reach bonus action attack so it should be lower, yes you can use it on non-reach weapon, but that is simply willingly doing a bad build. Also PAM gives you very reliable way to use your reaction for attack.
PAM attacks shares enchantment with main attack. I.E. "flaming" is very good on basic 1d4 attack.

2. TWF sucks. it sucks as base usage, with style and with feat. Maybe if dual-wielder is a half-feat it would be decent. Or if offhand attack is part of Attack Action. Or if you get 2 off-hand attacks with style when you get Extra attack feature.

3. all feats in 2014 benchmark except PAM, GWM, SS, CE, HAM, maybe Resilient wis/con are not worth losing +2 to primary ability.

 

[James Gasik]

1. PAM is 10ft reach bonus action attack so it should be lower, yes you can use it on non-reach weapon, but that is simply willingly doing a bad build. Also PAM gives you very reliable way to use your reaction for attack.
PAM attacks shares enchantment with main attack. I.E. "flaming" is very good on basic 1d4 attack.

2. TWF sucks. it sucks as base usage, with style and with feat. Maybe if dual-wielder is a half-feat it would be decent. Or if offhand attack is part of Attack Action. Or if you get 2 off-hand attacks with style when you get Extra attack feature.

3. all feats in 2014 benchmark except PAM, GWM, SS, CE, HAM, maybe Resilient wis/con are not worth losing +2 to primary ability.

How about adding War Caster to that list?

 

[ECMO3]

• Str sword & board is no better than Dex sword & board at hitting people thanks to the rapier being as good as the longsword. And it's worse >90% of the rest of the time.

I think strength sword and board is substantially better for 4 reasons:

1. Melee Weapons - the strength sword and board can use a Rapier, Longsword, Battleaxe, Pick, Morningstar, Flail or warhammer and do 1d8 damage. The dex sword and board can only use a Rapier. Also a host of d6 melee weapons are available and there are only two with a dex guy. This versatility matters a lot once magic weapons start showing up. While wielding that +1 Trident might not be what you had in mind at character build, it will do more damage than a non-magic Longsword or Rapier.

2. Missile weapons - A sword and board is usually going to want to melee, but occasionally they are going to need to hurl something. All of the weapons you can use as a sword and board are thrown and usable with strength. Only a couple of them (dart, dagger) are finesse and usable with dexterity. Further the damage is higher, 1d6 vs 1d4.

3. Bludgeoinging damage - While longsword is the trope for a sword and board, and a Rapier also does 1d8, the best weapon for a sword and board actually a flail or a warhammer, especially at low levels. At low levels you are usually going to run into fair numbers of enemies that are either vulnerable to bludgeoning damage or resistant to piercing and slashing.

4. Armor - high strength means heavy armor without sacrificing movement. This in turn means a higher AC. It is only 1 point, but then add that your strength is higher so you don't hit your encumberence limit as soon either.

Individually these are all relatively minor, but taken together they make a strength swordmore powerful in combat than a dex sword and board IMO.

 

[ECMO3]

2. TWF sucks. it sucks as base usage, with style and with feat. Maybe if dual-wielder is a half-feat it would be decent. Or if offhand attack is part of Attack Action. Or if you get 2 off-hand attacks with style when you get Extra attack feature.

Mathematically TWF with the fighting style and an ASI will do more damage than using a Glaive or Halberd with no ASI and the PAM feat

At 5th level if all attacks hit,
16 strength PAM is doing 2d10+1d4+9=22.5
18 strength TWF is doing 3d6+12=22.5

However, the TWF is htting more often so it will outdamage the PAM fighter. At 15 AC for example PAM is doing 13.5DPR, TWF is doing 14.625 with the same action economy.

Add to this the TWF can go with hand axes and engage at range as well.

I think the reason TWF gets a bad wrap is people think of it as a Ranger style and people try to use it on a dex-based Ranger using Hunters Mark. On that build it does suck because they are limited to finesse weapons and they need to use a bonus action to cast/move hunters mark. PAM is actually a better build for a Ranger than TWF. But TWF works very well on a strength-based fighter with a subclass with few bonus actions.

 

[TwoSix]

Mathematically TWF with the fighting style and an ASI will do more damage than using a Glaive or Halberd with no ASI and the PAM feat

At 5th level if all attacks hit,
16 strength PAM is doing 2d10+1d4+9=22.5
18 strength TWF is doing 3d6+12=22.5

HOWEVER the TWF is htting more often so it will outdamage the PAM fighter. At 15 AC for example PAM is doing 13.5DPR, TWF is doing 14.625 with the same action economy.

Add to this the TWF can go with hand axes and engage at range as well

Well, taking the GWF fighting style will add 2.1 max damage to the PAM calculation, or 1.26 damage to the AC 15 calculation, which would nudge it slightly higher.

Or they could just take Defensive style and get +1 AC, which is also a decent trade off.

Honestly, the biggest factor by far in these weapon style debates is how the campaign handles magic item acquisition, as you mentioned in a previous post. If the DM is fairly generous with giving out weapon-style appropriate items, then PAM and GWM, or rapier-based Dex, can come out ahead. If the weapon drops are more random (or non-existent), that's a big boost to Str based fighting, S&B and TWF.

 

[ECMO3]

3. all feats in 2014 benchmark except PAM, GWM, SS, CE, HAM, maybe Resilient wis/con are not worth losing +2 to primary ability.

I don't think that is true. Warcaster, Sentinel, Alert, Magic initiate, Weapon Master, Tavern Brawler all can be better depending on the specific build and Lucky is the best feat of all of them.

I think Resilient constitution is overated and not generally as good as the above feats. There may be some corner cases with an odd constitution that it is useful, but it is rarely worth +2 or another half feat IMO.

I know a lot of people don't like weapon master and it is rated poorly, but it is a solid feat on a custom lineage Rogue (heavy crossbow, whip, scimitar, longbow) or a Bladesinger with an odd dexterity (hand crossbow, short sword, scimitar, whip and then take Rapier as your bladesinger weapon).

Magic initiate is also rated poorly by many but it is a great feat on either a melee Rogue or melee cleric, providing a substantial boost to your attacks with booming blade and green flame blade.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

According to sage advice you have to take the bonus action after you have completed your attack action.

Yes, it's another ruling they just pulled out of nothing. The feat doesn't say 'after you have finished your Attack action', it just says 'if you take the Attack action', and a bonus action can be used at any time during your turn. Otherwise you get weirdness like you can attack + walk 30 feet + attack, but you cannot attack + bonus action Rogue dash 30 feet + attack.

So ... I still think it's pretty pointless. If you're doing a grapple you'd have to, what, make an attack with a weapon then put the weapon away and then grapple? I suppose that could work, not sure I see the point.

The whole heart of grapple builds is that you grapple them, and then shove them down. With movement 0, they cannot get up, while all their attacks are at disadvantage. Plus you can drag them anywhere you want at half speed (like a campfire, through spiked growth, over a ledge, up a tree).