D&D 5E Have you actually read the 5e DMG?

[Hussar]

As I said above, encounter design is important in my view and this seems like an issue of encounter design that is being corrected with a demonstrably slower initiative system. I'd fix it on the encounter design end personally rather than slow down the game. I'd also expect the players to make more use of spare the dying in such a setup, and would imagine I'd see more grave clerics to deal with NPCs/monsters attacking dying PCs.

Yeah, I don't think we're going to agree on this. Because, I'm still designing encounters as per the DMG, or, hey, using WotC modules (running Ghost of Saltmarsh currently) and I know right now that if I ran initiative this way, I'd be killing PC's far too often. It's far too powerful on the monster side to group all the baddies together like that. At least, it is if you run monsters with even a modicum of tactical acumen.

And, if the solution to running initiative by the book is to force players to play certain classes, then, well, those rules are flat out bad.

 

[Asisreo]

Yeah, I don't think we're going to agree on this. Because, I'm still designing encounters as per the DMG, or, hey, using WotC modules (running Ghost of Saltmarsh currently) and I know right now that if I ran initiative this way, I'd be killing PC's far too often. It's far too powerful on the monster side to group all the baddies together like that. At least, it is if you run monsters with even a modicum of tactical acumen.

And, if the solution to running initiative by the book is to force players to play certain classes, then, well, those rules are flat out bad.

I feel like there's quite the assumptions being thrown around. I've used both module and designed encounters by hand with 10+ monsters all the time. Again, it's scary as a player on the first round but it encourages caution before combat.

And yes, I have tactical encounters. I probably have my monsters over-tactical as if the monster has the capability of stealth, they will try to ambush. If they're a spellcaster, they'll poke in and out of range while having the melee combatants fight and constantly taking advantage of cover. If the monster is exceptionally smart, like a beholder, I may even counter a character's specific plan because a beholder may have been able to predict their next move.

Heck, I've literally played with my friend's 6 year old brother and him, only them two, with multiple identical monsters and they were fine. Trust me, going by the book, 14 bandits going at once is only really barely going to dent a pair of level 5 PC's. I know CR isn't the best and it isn't fool-proof but when something says it's a medium encounter, my players haven't died to them.

 

[iserith]

And, if the solution to running initiative by the book is to force players to play certain classes, then, well, those rules are flat out bad.

I was referring to the way you set things up. Spare the dying, particularly with grave clerics who can cast it as a bonus action, seems like the best way to mitigate death from NPCs/monsters that frequently attack dying PCs. It would also make in-combat healing a great deal more important - better to never let anyone hit 0 hit points if you can. I would definitely take such a character in a game like yours.

 

[billd91]

I was referring to the way you set things up. Spare the dying, particularly with grave clerics who can cast it as a bonus action, seems like the best way to mitigate death from NPCs/monsters that frequently attack dying PCs. It would also make in-combat healing a great deal more important - better to never let anyone hit 0 hit points if you can. I would definitely take such a character in a game like yours.

Yeah, combat healing would be pretty important, but spare the dying wouldn’t be of much help if a PC goes down while there are still 4-5 identical enemies left to go on the same initiative. If one‘s within 5 feet, all it takes is 2 of them and that PC’s next action is pushing up daisies.

 

[iserith]

Yeah, combat healing would be pretty important, but spare the dying wouldn’t be of much help if a PC goes down while there are still 4-5 identical enemies left to go on the same initiative. If one‘s within 5 feet, all it takes is 2 of them and that PC’s next action is pushing up daisies.

Mitigate doesn't mean eliminate.

 

[Hussar]

Spare the dying wouldn't make any difference anyway. You're still unconcious. Every hit counts as a crit and two hits and you die no matter what. If I'm doing side initiative, it really wouldn't matter. The downed PC never has a chance to make a death save anyway. All I need is 2 baddies, or even one baddy with multiple attacks.

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15 bandits vs a 5th level party? Sure, that's a cake walk for the party, regardless of how you do intiative. The CR TELLS you that it's a medium encounter which means it should never kill a PC. Considering none of the MM bandits have any abilities at all, that's about as easy an encounter as you can do. With a +3 attack bonus, against 5th level PC's, it's unlikely they will hit more than a few times per round.

Now, let's make a fairly deadly encounter. 15 Tribal Warriors. Same CR, but, now they have pack tactics and since I go as a block, after the 1st NPC, I'm pretty much guaranteed to get advantage on every attack. Hitting much more often and much better chances of crits.

That's the problem with block initiatives. The DM gets SO MANY actions before the players get any reactions. Imagine encounters in Storm King's Thunder where you can have multiple fire giants in the same encounter. Yikes!

 

[Asisreo]

Spare the dying wouldn't make any difference anyway. You're still unconcious. Every hit counts as a crit and two hits and you die no matter what. If I'm doing side initiative, it really wouldn't matter. The downed PC never has a chance to make a death save anyway. All I need is 2 baddies, or even one baddy with multiple attacks.

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15 bandits vs a 5th level party? Sure, that's a cake walk for the party, regardless of how you do intiative. The CR TELLS you that it's a medium encounter which means it should never kill a PC. Considering none of the MM bandits have any abilities at all, that's about as easy an encounter as you can do. With a +3 attack bonus, against 5th level PC's, it's unlikely they will hit more than a few times per round.

Now, let's make a fairly deadly encounter. 15 Tribal Warriors. Same CR, but, now they have pack tactics and since I go as a block, after the 1st NPC, I'm pretty much guaranteed to get advantage on every attack. Hitting much more often and much better chances of crits.

That's the problem with block initiatives. The DM gets SO MANY actions before the players get any reactions. Imagine encounters in Storm King's Thunder where you can have multiple fire giants in the same encounter. Yikes!

Tribal warriors only have an effective range of 20ft and the advantage assumes a melee combatant. By level 5, 2 characters should have reliable AoE options and ranged options certainly farther than 20ft. A melee PC at level 5 can get roughly 18-20 AC by then which makes the warriors hitting unlikely (even with advantage.) Their damage output is small, a melee fighter at level 5 can survive a few pricks from a couple of spears.

Other characters can use longer distance attacks to pick them off while the warriors are attempting to fight the melee PC.

Trust the players and their tools. By time 15 of anything is seen as a medium encounter, characters have the tools to survive them.