Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard
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Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Well, color me influenced by previous editions of the psionics rules.
1e was unbalanced and unplayable.
2e was playable but unbalanced
3e was rather weak except in a few very narrow areas. (Astral Constructs had potential and Mind Blast was an encounter-destroying power).
As for 3.5e, I haven't seen it in action yet. However, having looked through the SRD, and thought about how to create a variety of different characters, I think that Thanee has the right of it: 3.5 Psionics are rather unbalanced.
I hadn't noticed the ability to manifest powers from power stones or other psions before but that means that psions (and PsiWars) essentially have no limit on the number of non-combat powers that they can manifest. A party with two psions or even a psion and a psiwar will be exponentially more effective than a party with only one at least by mid-levels. And the ability to use power stones makes it utterly ridiculous. How much would any of you charge for an item that added a first level spell to a sorceror's list of spells known? I'd be willing to bet you'd charge more than 25gp. (Yes, I know there's a skill check but it's trivial. By 3rd level, any psion or PsyWar can take ten and automatically succeed on the check). What's worse, I don't even read any requirement that the psion actually be able to manifest powers of the level of the stored power. So a 3rd level psion with a power stone of a 2nd level power could manifest that power through the power stone. Ditto for a 3rd level PsyWar. This grants practical access to mid-long duration powers at least one level earlier than the characters would otherwise get it. With a torc of power preservation, that's two power levels earlier than access would otherwise be possible. With Overchannel and/or an orange ioun stone as well, that's potentially five levels before the psion would otherwise have access to the power. So, Psions can get consistent access to 9th level powers by 14th-15th level rather than at 17th or 18th level.
There's also a problem with pricing augmented psionic items. A dorje of augmented energy ray, for instance would be the equivalent of an energy substituted wand of polar ray at 1/8 the cost--if wands of polar ray were possible which they aren't. Leaving aside any question of how this advantages psions, etc, augmented psionic items are a UMD character's wet dream. Access to effectively 8th and 9th level powers at the price of 1st level powers and with a far easier check to activate than would otherwise be possible for powers/spells of level 5+. If items of augmented powers were priced based on their effective level rather than their native level this loophole wouldn't exist but, as it stands, it's pretty darn massive.
As to the rest, it seems pretty clear to me that psions are only balanced in an environment where pp output is actually limited. Since very very few adventures seem to really place time at a premium, a psion who can blow through all of his pps in one or two encounters worth of maximally powered abilities (chosen on the fly from a very wide selection) and then rest to regain the spent pps is at a HUGE advantage over sorcerors, wizards, and clerics. At mid-levels, the lack of party buffs like haste may be telling, however, if one is comparing spell/power lists, the number of powers with built in quickening (or better yet, Immediate) mechanisms more than makes up for it. The psionic energy resistance powers, for instance are so dramatically better than all magical ones (with the possible exception of Energy Buffer which is neither core nor 3.5) that direct power/spell comparison is futile.
Psion
Adventurer
Yes. You notice in the description that where it talks about manifesting a power normally, it stops talking about the stone (not to mention the title of the section). I beleive the beginning part is just talking about addressing and using a stone.
I certainly agree the early mentions of the stone make it sound that way. But manifesting a power from a stone with your own PP would be too good to be true!
I certainly agree the early mentions of the stone make it sound that way. But manifesting a power from a stone with your own PP would be too good to be true!
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Elder-Basilisk said:
Of course, the wizard can do the same. Generally at a much lower gp cost as well.
Also, pearls of power work much, much better than the psionic equivalent. Plus, rings of wizardry are golden for sorcs
Elder-Basilisk said:
Dorje of energy ray boosted up to 8th level? impossible.
However, depending on how you read the dorje information either an energy ray that is maxed out in augmentation would either cost 4500gp (manifestor level 6) or 11,250gp (manifestor level 6) or 13,500gp (manifestor level 6).
As energy ray is a first level power it cannot be augmented higher than manifestor level 6.
None of those costs are exactly cheap. Although the first (and cheapest) is probably the most likely to be true.
Still, 4500gp for 50 charges of a 6d6 ray attack up to 40 feet isnt too bad. Compared with a wand of magic missile (caster level 5, 3750gp) deals 1d4+1 three times as a force effect and a range of 150' with no attack roll needed.
It is all about the tradeoffs, sometimes one is much better than the other.
Sorren
First Post
This is still going huh? I guess I'll chime in with my two cents. Or a dime. This is going to be long…
”Psions” do not compare well with Sorcerers
Psions are forced to specialize. You can't compare a "psion" to anything because a "psion" doesn't exist. You want to compare a Kineticist to a Sorcerer, you need to keep in mind the fact that the Kineticist is focused on dealing damage and manipulating energy while the sorcerer is a little more open ended.
It'd be like comparing an Evocation Specialist against a Sorcerer. Who is more powerful there?
Also, don't plan on giving him many other powers like Astral Construct or Metamorphosis unless you take into account the fact that he will have to wait an additional two levels and spend a feat to get them.
But he gets bonus feats. This is true. However, those feats are needed for other things if the psion ever wants to make extensive use of metapsionics or anything that requires focus.
Damage is the Only Common Ground.
To compare the two, the only true real basis for analysis is damage output. The usefulness of other powers and spells is too dependent on other factors such as the DM's style, the environment, etc, and therefore can’t be taken into consideration here.
In general, damage output is the only thing the two classes can really agree on and is typically the first thing that causes the "overpowered" flag to be waved. Thus, it becomes the "measuring stick" that I’ll be using.
Number of Spells Cast vs. Number of Powers Manifested
Example characters:
10th level Human Kineticist (Int 16) vs. 10th level Human Sorcerer (Cha 16)
For the purposes of comparison, we'll assume that neither of them has access to any money or equipment.
Psion
Number of Powers Known: 21
Power Points: 103
Possible Conversion to Slots Configuration: 1-2 (2pps); 2-1 (3pps); 3-4 (20pps); 4-6 (42pps); 5-4 (36pps)
This is, I feel, a pretty realistic distribution of power usage for a psion. It represents a player who is concerned with trying to hit hard whenever possible, but is being just a little conservative. In this example, he gets 4 uses of his highest level powers.
Sorcerer
Number of Spells Known: 0-9; 1-5; 2-4; 3-3; 4-2; 5-1 (Total: 24)
Spells Castable per Day: 0-6; 1-7; 2-7; 3-7; 4-5; 5-3
Slot Conversion to Power Points: 3*+7+21+35+35+21 = 122
* I counted 0 level spells as a half power point.
This assumes no augmentation is being done. So as you can see above, the psion gets an additional use of his highest, and next to highest, level powers each day when compared to a sorcerer, but severely lacks in lower level manifestations.
Let's look at the lower level stuff. Assuming there is no augmentation done, the low level psionics pale in comparison to low level spells due to augmentation. If the psion decides to augment, he can, but he is going to loose use of some of those higher level "slots".
In the end, I feel that if you are only looking at number of powers vs. number of spells, they are about equal. The psion has the option to blow more points up front, but players in most situations will manifest about an equal number of their highest level powers and next highest level powers as well as a few lower level powers for utility. This is represented in the PPs to slot conversion above.
The sorcerer is much better over time. While the psion has the ability to blow a lot of power in a short amount of time, the sorcerer can use up his high level slots, and still fall back on fairly potent low level powers. The psion will have a few more high level "slots" but when they are gone, he is pretty much tapped out.
This is where the DMs gaming style comes into play. In a situation where the character must face multiple encounters before he can rest, the sorcerer is going to fair well. He'll probably blow two to four high level slots per battle, but when he runs out, his low level powers are still effective. Unless he has Empower Spell…. we’ll get to that.
The psion will likely dominate the battlefield during the first encounter if he thinks he can rest. If he knows he will have more encounters later, he is going to either hold back his power and thus spend a few rounds playing the part of cheerleader while occasionally tossing out a potent strike, or he'll be a walking artillery platform for two encounters at the most and be a spectator for the rest.
So in conclusion, if the party is in a position to rest after every battle, the psion is more potent. He can blow all of his points on his highest level powers, or spend all of his points augmenting, and thus rule the battlefield.
If the party is going to face multiple encounters, the sorcerer has the advantage. He can burn through his higher level spells in the first few encounters, and still be able to play an important roll with low level spells in the later encounters.
Damage Dealing – The Contest
So a psion (kineticist) and a sorcerer decide to settle the matter once and for all. The challenge: Who can deal the most damage? (Using average damage with no metapsionics or metamagic.) I hope my math and strategies are right here...
The Psion
Round 1: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Energy Missle (3pps); 3d6+3 = 12 points of Fire Damage
Total: 412 points of damage over 11 rounds
The Sorcerer
Round 1: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Cold Damage
Round 2: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Cold Damage
Round 3: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Cold Damage
Round 4: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Subtotal up to this point: 324 points of damage over 11 rounds.
The psion can deal roughly 88 more points of damage, but is completely out of power points by this point. He is now a cheerleader for the rest of the party. But let’s see what or sorcerer friend is doing…
Round 12: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 13: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 14: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 15: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 16: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 17: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 18: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 19: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 20: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 21: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 22: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 23: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 24: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 25: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 26: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 27: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 28: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 29: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 30: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 31: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 32: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 33: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 34: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 35: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Subtotal: 309 points of damage over the next 24 rounds and a lot of enemies are deafened.
Total: 633 points of damage over 35 rounds.
Of course, this is an extreme example of damage dealing gone crazy, but we can learn something from this. A sorcerer is less than 3 fireballs away from dealing the same amount of damage as the psion in the first 11 rounds. In addition, the slots the sorcerer used were not his highest level. He has a lot of potential left regarding non-damage dealing spells.
After the psion was dead in the water, the sorcerer still had all of his 4th level slots left. If he stopped concentrating on dealing pure damage, those 4th level slots would be much more effective. Even concentrating purely on damage, he is able to do another 309 points of damage before he joins the psion on the sidelines. Give him Empower spell, and well…. see below.
Damage Dealing with Metapsionics & Metamagic
So let's now take metapsionics and metamagic into consideration:
The Psion
Round 1: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 1: Empowered Energy Ray (1+2=3pps); 1d6+1 x 150% = 5 points of Fire Damage
Total: 425 points of damage over 11 rounds.
This requires Empower Power and a successful check to regain focus every round which also requires an additional feat or two.
For Reference: Maximized Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 50% = 42 points of Fire Damage (Same Result)
For Reference: Twin Energy Missle (3+6+1=10pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 x 2 = 28 points of Fire Damage (Much Weaker Result)
Sorcerer
Round 1: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Total: 405 points of damage over 11 rounds. This requires the Empower Spell Feat.
At this point, the sorcerer still has 4 3rd level spells, and he hasn't touched his 2nd, 1st, or 0 level spells at all. He is 20 points behind a psion with Empower Power in average damage, but he isn't out of spells. So let's see what the sorcerer is up to while our psion sits on the bench...
(Not wanting to shame his friend, he decides to stop using metamagic.)
Round 12: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 13: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 14: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 15: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 16: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 17: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 18: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 19: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 20: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 21: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 22: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 23: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 24: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 25: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 26: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 27: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 28: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 29: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 30: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 31: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 32: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 33: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 34: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 35: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
That’s an additional 378 points of damage over the next 24 rounds. All while our kineticist is busy performing his favorite cheers.
Total: 783 points of damage over 35 rounds.
So the basic sorcerer can't deal as much damage as the basic kineticist in 11 rounds. However, give him the Empower Spell feat, and he is only 7 points behind the kineticist in 11 rounds and has a load of still very effective lower level spells to fall back on.
For the cost of a single feat, the 10th level sorcerer can effectively dish out an average of 378 points of damage after he gets done dealing only 7 points of damage less than our psion buddy over 11 rounds of constant combat.
Without Empower, the sorcerer is considerably weaker than the psion over a short amount of time. With empower, he is capable of roughly the same amount of damage in the same amount of time and he can continue to lay down damage long after the psion.
Give the kineticist Empower Power and you only see a difference of 13 points of damage. It clearly isn't worth spending the feat if you are a psion.
[sarcasm]So is a sorcerer with empower broken?[/sarcasm]
Other Considerations
Feats:
Psions get bonus feats. Sorcerers don't. We see from this test that it takes a metamagic feat to put the sorcerer on par with the psion when it comes to pure damage over a short period of time. So do we give the sorcerer a bonus feat? No.
For the price of one feat, not only does the sorcerer equal the psion, but becomes FAR superior in that he can go much longer before he's out of the fight.
The only problem I see is that Empower Spell in this case breaks a major rule of feats. "Feats should be nice, but never necessary."
But a psion gets more than just one bonus feat. Yes, he does. However, all of those will be spent on focus related feats if he wants to use metapsionics to any degree. Or, he can use them to overcome the negative effects of being forced to specialize by selecting powers outside his specialty.
Familiar/Psicrystal:
Sorcerers get a free familiar. Psions get a bonus feat at first level that can be spent to get a psicrystal. Personally, I think this is pretty balanced. Disagree? Allow the sorcerer to swap his familiar for a bonus feat. I've been doing it in my game for years.
Armor Check Penalty:
Psions have a clear advantage here. No way to argue that.
Componants vs. Displays:
Psions can automatically attempt to suppress their displays. Sorcerers can't go without components without the proper feats. Psions have a clear advantage here.
Conclusion
Over the short term, a base psion can lay down more damage than a base sorcerer in a short amount of time. Give the sorcerer Empower Spell, and he not only matches the psion for short term damage, but can continue to deal considerable amounts of damage long after the psion has become useless.
The psion has the advantage regarding non-damage dealing issues. He can pick his element of choice on the spot while a sorcerer can't do this without a few feats. The psion also doesn't have to worry about arcane spell failure or components.
Do these things make up for the 24 rounds he spends on the sidelines watching his sorcerer buddy continue the fight? I personally think it makes them about even. In fact, it could even be said that the sorcerer is the stronger of the two classes. Just give him Empower Spell and watch him go at it like the fireball slinging Energizer Bunny.
”Psions” do not compare well with Sorcerers
Psions are forced to specialize. You can't compare a "psion" to anything because a "psion" doesn't exist. You want to compare a Kineticist to a Sorcerer, you need to keep in mind the fact that the Kineticist is focused on dealing damage and manipulating energy while the sorcerer is a little more open ended.
It'd be like comparing an Evocation Specialist against a Sorcerer. Who is more powerful there?
Also, don't plan on giving him many other powers like Astral Construct or Metamorphosis unless you take into account the fact that he will have to wait an additional two levels and spend a feat to get them.
But he gets bonus feats. This is true. However, those feats are needed for other things if the psion ever wants to make extensive use of metapsionics or anything that requires focus.
Damage is the Only Common Ground.
To compare the two, the only true real basis for analysis is damage output. The usefulness of other powers and spells is too dependent on other factors such as the DM's style, the environment, etc, and therefore can’t be taken into consideration here.
In general, damage output is the only thing the two classes can really agree on and is typically the first thing that causes the "overpowered" flag to be waved. Thus, it becomes the "measuring stick" that I’ll be using.
Number of Spells Cast vs. Number of Powers Manifested
Example characters:
10th level Human Kineticist (Int 16) vs. 10th level Human Sorcerer (Cha 16)
For the purposes of comparison, we'll assume that neither of them has access to any money or equipment.
Psion
Number of Powers Known: 21
Power Points: 103
Possible Conversion to Slots Configuration: 1-2 (2pps); 2-1 (3pps); 3-4 (20pps); 4-6 (42pps); 5-4 (36pps)
This is, I feel, a pretty realistic distribution of power usage for a psion. It represents a player who is concerned with trying to hit hard whenever possible, but is being just a little conservative. In this example, he gets 4 uses of his highest level powers.
Sorcerer
Number of Spells Known: 0-9; 1-5; 2-4; 3-3; 4-2; 5-1 (Total: 24)
Spells Castable per Day: 0-6; 1-7; 2-7; 3-7; 4-5; 5-3
Slot Conversion to Power Points: 3*+7+21+35+35+21 = 122
* I counted 0 level spells as a half power point.
This assumes no augmentation is being done. So as you can see above, the psion gets an additional use of his highest, and next to highest, level powers each day when compared to a sorcerer, but severely lacks in lower level manifestations.
Let's look at the lower level stuff. Assuming there is no augmentation done, the low level psionics pale in comparison to low level spells due to augmentation. If the psion decides to augment, he can, but he is going to loose use of some of those higher level "slots".
In the end, I feel that if you are only looking at number of powers vs. number of spells, they are about equal. The psion has the option to blow more points up front, but players in most situations will manifest about an equal number of their highest level powers and next highest level powers as well as a few lower level powers for utility. This is represented in the PPs to slot conversion above.
The sorcerer is much better over time. While the psion has the ability to blow a lot of power in a short amount of time, the sorcerer can use up his high level slots, and still fall back on fairly potent low level powers. The psion will have a few more high level "slots" but when they are gone, he is pretty much tapped out.
This is where the DMs gaming style comes into play. In a situation where the character must face multiple encounters before he can rest, the sorcerer is going to fair well. He'll probably blow two to four high level slots per battle, but when he runs out, his low level powers are still effective. Unless he has Empower Spell…. we’ll get to that.
The psion will likely dominate the battlefield during the first encounter if he thinks he can rest. If he knows he will have more encounters later, he is going to either hold back his power and thus spend a few rounds playing the part of cheerleader while occasionally tossing out a potent strike, or he'll be a walking artillery platform for two encounters at the most and be a spectator for the rest.
So in conclusion, if the party is in a position to rest after every battle, the psion is more potent. He can blow all of his points on his highest level powers, or spend all of his points augmenting, and thus rule the battlefield.
If the party is going to face multiple encounters, the sorcerer has the advantage. He can burn through his higher level spells in the first few encounters, and still be able to play an important roll with low level spells in the later encounters.
Damage Dealing – The Contest
So a psion (kineticist) and a sorcerer decide to settle the matter once and for all. The challenge: Who can deal the most damage? (Using average damage with no metapsionics or metamagic.) I hope my math and strategies are right here...
The Psion
Round 1: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 40 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Energy Missle (3pps); 3d6+3 = 12 points of Fire Damage
Total: 412 points of damage over 11 rounds
The Sorcerer
Round 1: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Cold Damage
Round 2: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Cold Damage
Round 3: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Cold Damage
Round 4: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Subtotal up to this point: 324 points of damage over 11 rounds.
The psion can deal roughly 88 more points of damage, but is completely out of power points by this point. He is now a cheerleader for the rest of the party. But let’s see what or sorcerer friend is doing…
Round 12: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 13: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 14: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 15: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 16: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 17: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 18: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 19: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 20: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 21: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 22: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 15 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 23: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 24: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 25: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 26: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 27: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 28: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 29: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 30: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 31: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 32: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 33: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 34: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 35: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Subtotal: 309 points of damage over the next 24 rounds and a lot of enemies are deafened.
Total: 633 points of damage over 35 rounds.
Of course, this is an extreme example of damage dealing gone crazy, but we can learn something from this. A sorcerer is less than 3 fireballs away from dealing the same amount of damage as the psion in the first 11 rounds. In addition, the slots the sorcerer used were not his highest level. He has a lot of potential left regarding non-damage dealing spells.
After the psion was dead in the water, the sorcerer still had all of his 4th level slots left. If he stopped concentrating on dealing pure damage, those 4th level slots would be much more effective. Even concentrating purely on damage, he is able to do another 309 points of damage before he joins the psion on the sidelines. Give him Empower spell, and well…. see below.
Damage Dealing with Metapsionics & Metamagic
So let's now take metapsionics and metamagic into consideration:
The Psion
Round 1: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 1: Empowered Energy Ray (1+2=3pps); 1d6+1 x 150% = 5 points of Fire Damage
Total: 425 points of damage over 11 rounds.
This requires Empower Power and a successful check to regain focus every round which also requires an additional feat or two.
For Reference: Maximized Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 50% = 42 points of Fire Damage (Same Result)
For Reference: Twin Energy Missle (3+6+1=10pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 x 2 = 28 points of Fire Damage (Much Weaker Result)
Sorcerer
Round 1: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 36 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Total: 405 points of damage over 11 rounds. This requires the Empower Spell Feat.
At this point, the sorcerer still has 4 3rd level spells, and he hasn't touched his 2nd, 1st, or 0 level spells at all. He is 20 points behind a psion with Empower Power in average damage, but he isn't out of spells. So let's see what the sorcerer is up to while our psion sits on the bench...
(Not wanting to shame his friend, he decides to stop using metamagic.)
Round 12: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 13: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 14: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 15: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 30 points of Fire Damage
Round 16: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 17: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 18: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 19: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 20: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 21: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 22: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 24 points of Fire Damage
Round 23: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 24: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 25: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 26: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 27: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 28: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 29: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 12 points of Force Damage
Round 30: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 31: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 32: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 33: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 34: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
Round 35: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 1 point of Cold Damage
That’s an additional 378 points of damage over the next 24 rounds. All while our kineticist is busy performing his favorite cheers.
Total: 783 points of damage over 35 rounds.
So the basic sorcerer can't deal as much damage as the basic kineticist in 11 rounds. However, give him the Empower Spell feat, and he is only 7 points behind the kineticist in 11 rounds and has a load of still very effective lower level spells to fall back on.
For the cost of a single feat, the 10th level sorcerer can effectively dish out an average of 378 points of damage after he gets done dealing only 7 points of damage less than our psion buddy over 11 rounds of constant combat.
Without Empower, the sorcerer is considerably weaker than the psion over a short amount of time. With empower, he is capable of roughly the same amount of damage in the same amount of time and he can continue to lay down damage long after the psion.
Give the kineticist Empower Power and you only see a difference of 13 points of damage. It clearly isn't worth spending the feat if you are a psion.
[sarcasm]So is a sorcerer with empower broken?[/sarcasm]
Other Considerations
Feats:
Psions get bonus feats. Sorcerers don't. We see from this test that it takes a metamagic feat to put the sorcerer on par with the psion when it comes to pure damage over a short period of time. So do we give the sorcerer a bonus feat? No.
For the price of one feat, not only does the sorcerer equal the psion, but becomes FAR superior in that he can go much longer before he's out of the fight.
The only problem I see is that Empower Spell in this case breaks a major rule of feats. "Feats should be nice, but never necessary."
But a psion gets more than just one bonus feat. Yes, he does. However, all of those will be spent on focus related feats if he wants to use metapsionics to any degree. Or, he can use them to overcome the negative effects of being forced to specialize by selecting powers outside his specialty.
Familiar/Psicrystal:
Sorcerers get a free familiar. Psions get a bonus feat at first level that can be spent to get a psicrystal. Personally, I think this is pretty balanced. Disagree? Allow the sorcerer to swap his familiar for a bonus feat. I've been doing it in my game for years.
Armor Check Penalty:
Psions have a clear advantage here. No way to argue that.
Componants vs. Displays:
Psions can automatically attempt to suppress their displays. Sorcerers can't go without components without the proper feats. Psions have a clear advantage here.
Conclusion
Over the short term, a base psion can lay down more damage than a base sorcerer in a short amount of time. Give the sorcerer Empower Spell, and he not only matches the psion for short term damage, but can continue to deal considerable amounts of damage long after the psion has become useless.
The psion has the advantage regarding non-damage dealing issues. He can pick his element of choice on the spot while a sorcerer can't do this without a few feats. The psion also doesn't have to worry about arcane spell failure or components.
Do these things make up for the 24 rounds he spends on the sidelines watching his sorcerer buddy continue the fight? I personally think it makes them about even. In fact, it could even be said that the sorcerer is the stronger of the two classes. Just give him Empower Spell and watch him go at it like the fireball slinging Energizer Bunny.
Last edited:
two
First Post
Fence Sitting Challenge
Psion, Thanee:
How about this for a dumb comparison.
Take ye olde typical short published adventure. One at random.
Plunk into this adventure ye olde iconic party, with a Wizard in one, and a Psion in the other. i.e. 4 pc's, one of which is a Psion, and 4 pc's, one of which is a Wizard. There are two groups, both going through this generic adventure. Level based on the adventure picked.
Run these two parties through the combats/challenges in the adventure "theoretically," i.e. just talk through the challenges.
Give the probable results for each challege, assuming combat (if any) lasts 4 rounds.
Challenge 1 example: "Wizard uses fly to get party over ravine." "Psion helps string rope over ravine (if he can)" Advantage: Wizard?
Challenge 2 example: "Wizard spends 4 4th level spells attacking orcs." "Psion uses 40 PP's attacking orcs." Advantaeg: Psion?
Etc.
See if, in this typical adventure, there are times the party can rest between challenges; if the challenges are varied enough to take advantage of the wizard's spell selection; etc.
Just an idea, to see how they would play out in "typical adventures."
Granted, this might take a few minutes. I would, but I don't know squat about psionics. But I'm learning.
Psion, Thanee:
How about this for a dumb comparison.
Take ye olde typical short published adventure. One at random.
Plunk into this adventure ye olde iconic party, with a Wizard in one, and a Psion in the other. i.e. 4 pc's, one of which is a Psion, and 4 pc's, one of which is a Wizard. There are two groups, both going through this generic adventure. Level based on the adventure picked.
Run these two parties through the combats/challenges in the adventure "theoretically," i.e. just talk through the challenges.
Give the probable results for each challege, assuming combat (if any) lasts 4 rounds.
Challenge 1 example: "Wizard uses fly to get party over ravine." "Psion helps string rope over ravine (if he can)" Advantage: Wizard?
Challenge 2 example: "Wizard spends 4 4th level spells attacking orcs." "Psion uses 40 PP's attacking orcs." Advantaeg: Psion?
Etc.
See if, in this typical adventure, there are times the party can rest between challenges; if the challenges are varied enough to take advantage of the wizard's spell selection; etc.
Just an idea, to see how they would play out in "typical adventures."
Granted, this might take a few minutes. I would, but I don't know squat about psionics. But I'm learning.
Psion
Adventurer
head... swimming... from Sorren's... post.
Ahem...
two... that's actually the sort of thing I was getting at when I was talking about in my experience, a psion doesn't dominate. But really, as I have said in past balance threads (and indeed, my reply to Ari above), balance is very situation and game style sensitive. Undoubtedly, some adventures (or campaigns, or playstyles) would favor one of the other.
Right now I am running a Shaper (amidst the rest of a party) through WLD, so I am seeing some of these things first hand. Of course, my current players are not minmaxy, so that might not help the analysis too much.
Ahem...
two... that's actually the sort of thing I was getting at when I was talking about in my experience, a psion doesn't dominate. But really, as I have said in past balance threads (and indeed, my reply to Ari above), balance is very situation and game style sensitive. Undoubtedly, some adventures (or campaigns, or playstyles) would favor one of the other.
Right now I am running a Shaper (amidst the rest of a party) through WLD, so I am seeing some of these things first hand. Of course, my current players are not minmaxy, so that might not help the analysis too much.
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