Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

Sorren, your numbers are unfortunately incorrect. You're using less-than-average damage numbers (3 instead of 3.5 for a d6 roll) which skews the results. For example:

Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 45 points of Fire Damage

But a 10-pt Empowered energy ball does 8d6+8 * 1.5 damage, the average of which is 36 * 1.5 = 54 pts of cold or fire damage.
And a 10th lvl caster Empowered fireball does 10d6 * 1.5 damage, the average of which is 35 * 1.5 = 52.5 pts of fire damage.
You'll note that the psion is doing more damage in this case, not less, although it's not a significant amount.

Also, there's the matter of saving throws. Average damage doesn't mean much on its own, the real benchmark is what's the average damage against a specific target? The psion's DCs will be the same or higher, which means a slightly greater amount of expected damage to his/her targets.

And you're putting area effect powers (energy ball, fireball) on the same damage footing as single-target powers (like scorching ray).

For the psion's "leftover" pts in your example, he's better off using energy missile instead of energy ray (and will probably have it if he knows energy ball, as both are kineticist-only powers). For 3 pts, energy ray requires a touch attack and does 3d6+3 to one target. For the same pts, energy missile does 3d6+3 damage to five targets, no miss chance although there is a save for half.
 
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Psion said:
head... swimming... from Sorren's... post.

I hope it wasn't too hard to follow. :)

It boils down to this:

Saying the psion is overpowered is a knee-jerk reaction. Compare it to a sorcerer with Empower Spell as I did above and you'll see that the psion is quickly left in the dust.

This only concerns pure damage dealing however as I think any other comparisons are too dependant on the DM's style and the enviroment.
 

Spatula said:
Sorren, your numbers are unfortunately incorrect. You're using less-than-average damage numbers (3 instead of 3.5 for a d6 roll) which skews the results. For example:

But you can't roll 3.5, so I went for 3.

Also, there's the matter of saving throws. Average damage doesn't mean much on its own, the real benchmark is what's the average damage against a specific target? The psion's DCs will be the same or higher, which means a slightly greater amount of expected damage to his/her targets.

And you're putting area effect powers (energy ball, fireball) on the same damage footing as single-target powers (like scorching ray).

For the psion's "leftover" pts in your example, he's better off using energy missile instead of energy ray (and will probably have it if he knows energy ball, as both are kineticist-only powers). For 3 pts, energy ray requires a touch attack and does 3d6+3 to one target. For the same pts, energy missile does 3d6+3 damage to five targets, no miss chance although there is a save for half.

All good points. I didn't take saving throws and multiple targets into consideration. I purposefully went only for the numbers.

Even taking those things into account, does anyone honestly think the sorcerer's 24 more rounds of spellcasting goodness isn't important?

Personally, as I wrote it, only concentrating on the number of d6's, the sorcerer is FAR more powerful. The consideration of DCs and number of targets makes them balanced. (Or as balanced as any two classes can be.)
 
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Psion said:
I certainly agree the early mentions of the stone make it sound that way. But manifesting a power from a stone with your own PP would be too good to be true!

I dunno - it's pretty ambiguous if they WEREN'T talking about doing the same thing to stones and people. After all, there's a whole separate entry for "proper" use of a power stone under magic items. Even without using power stones as sources, I've still never seen two sorcerers able to share abilities like this - it's an awful boost to a party to have two manifesters in some sort of gestalt hive-mind. :eek:
 

Spatula said:
Scion, I don't see anything about limits on how high you can set the manifester level of a dorje in the XPH. The Creating Dorjes section talks about upping the cost for an augmented power, but nothing about limiting that augmentation.

hmm?

SRD:
The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains.
 


Sorren said:
This is still going huh? I guess I'll chime in with my two cents. Or a dime. This is going to be long…

snip...
::applause::

Thanks for the numbers. I'm convinced.
 
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Psion vs. Wizard and Power Scaling

Below is a comparison based on effective output if all spells per day were used to fuel combat spells versus the power points it would take a psion to do equal damage.

20th Level Wizard (26 Int)
4/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4

First Level Magic Missile (5d4+5) 5*6 (per day) PP
Second Level Scorching Ray (12d6) 12*6 PP
Third Level Fireball (10d6) 10*6 PP
Fourth Level Emp Scorching Ray (18d6) 18*6 PP
Fifth Level Cone of Cold (15d6) 15*5 PP
Sixth Level Chain Lightning (20d6) 20*5 PP
Seventh Level Delayed Blast Fireball (20d6) 20*5 PP
Eighth Level Horrid Wilting (20d8) ~26*5 PP
Ninth Level Meteor Swarm (24d6) 24*4 PP
Total Equivalent Power Points = 751 Power Points
If he were a specialist = 901 Power Points

20th Level Psion (26 Int)
423 Power Points

=============================
My thoughts:

The psion will have greater flexibility in which power to use in what situation. He will be able to pick the right spell/ element for the job. The wizard can as well, but will be forced to take sub optimal damage dealers in some situations. The psion and wizards’ spell DC’s will equal, unless the psion uses +1 DC per PP spent powers. The psion also has the drawback of having to expend his psionic focus in order to use any feat relating to his spells (power penetration, focus, metapsionics). The psion is unable to use metamagic in conjunction with any other feat without the aid of a psicrystal and appropriate feats. The psion does not have to worry about being grappled/tied down/silenced. The psion has the benefit of being more exotic – the unknown is more dangerous in my experiences. The psion has much better feat options.

The wizard can produce a greater damage output than the psion can by using half his spell slots for damaging spells. His utility spells can be reused with the aid of spells such as Mage’s Lubrication (The name escapes me at the moment). The wizard has access to almost everything a psion does (Excluding prohibited schools, any wizard can charm, dominate, make illusions, fireball, or summon monsters). The wizard has better product support and a much greater selection of spells if we choose to bring this discussion outside of the PHB, and PsiHB. The wizard has to go through the trouble of keeping track of his spellbook and spell components.

IMO the Wizard comes out far ahead. I do not, however, believe the psion is weak. Its versatility and relative abundance of powers known make it very useful.
 
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Droid101 said:
::applause::

Thanks for the numbers. I'm convinced.

;)

Glad all that work wasn't for nothing. As has been mentioned above, it isn't a perfect analysis, but I think it puts to rest the "PSIONICS R BROKN!!!11!!" rant.

Different, but certainly not broken.
 


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