Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard
- Thread starter Mouseferatu
- Start date
Sorren
First Post
Scion said:
I've avoided touching on this because it can't be measured, but it's true.
Even if the psion out damages the sorcerer by as much as 30-40 points, he is still done. Even if all the fighting is over, there could be other sorts of challenges that a certain spell could overcome.
Sorren
First Post
NOTE: I didn't just correct the math, so please read the whole thing.
Screw it. I decided to fix the math, which had some interesting results.
My analysis and thoughts…
REVISED
”Psions” do not compare well with Sorcerers
Psions are forced to specialize. You can't compare a "psion" to anything because a "psion" doesn't exist. You want to compare a Kineticist to a Sorcerer, you need to keep in mind the fact that the Kineticist is focused on dealing damage and manipulating energy while the sorcerer is a little more open ended.
It'd be like comparing an Evocation Specialist against a Sorcerer. Who is more powerful there?
Also, don't plan on giving him many other powers like Astral Construct or Metamorphosis unless you take into account the fact that he will have to wait an additional two levels and spend a feat to get them.
But he gets bonus feats. This is true. However, those feats are needed for other things if the psion ever wants to make extensive use of metapsionics or anything that requires focus.
Damage is the Only Common Ground.
To compare the two, the only true real basis for analysis is damage output. The usefulness of other powers and spells is too dependent on other factors such as the DM's style, the environment, etc, and therefore can’t be taken into consideration here.
In general, damage output is the only thing the two classes can really agree on and is typically the first thing that causes the "overpowered" flag to be waved. Thus, it becomes the "measuring stick" that I’ll be using.
Number of Spells Cast vs. Number of Powers Manifested
Example characters:
10th level Human Kineticist (Int 16) vs. 10th level Human Sorcerer (Cha 16)
For the purposes of comparison, we'll assume that neither of them has access to any money or equipment.
Psion
Number of Powers Known: 21
Power Points: 103
Possible Conversion to Slots Configuration: 1-2 (2pps); 2-1 (3pps); 3-4 (20pps); 4-6 (42pps); 5-4 (36pps)
This is, I feel, a pretty realistic distribution of power usage for a psion. It represents a player who is concerned with trying to hit hard whenever possible, but is being just a little conservative. In this example, he gets 4 uses of his highest level powers.
Sorcerer
Number of Spells Known: 0-9; 1-5; 2-4; 3-3; 4-2; 5-1 (Total: 24)
Spells Castable per Day: 0-6; 1-7; 2-7; 3-7; 4-5; 5-3
Slot Conversion to Power Points: 3*+7+21+35+35+21 = 122
[size]* I counted 0 level spells as a half power point.[/size]
This assumes no augmentation is being done. So as you can see above, the psion gets an additional use of his highest, and next to highest, level powers each day when compared to a sorcerer, but severely lacks in lower level manifestations.
Let's look at the lower level stuff. Assuming there is no augmentation done, the low level psionics pale in comparison to low level spells due to augmentation. If the psion decides to augment, he can, but he is going to loose use of some of those higher level "slots".
In the end, I feel that if you are only looking at number of powers vs. number of spells, they are about equal. The psion has the option to blow more points up front, but players in most situations will manifest about an equal number of their highest level powers and next highest level powers as well as a few lower level powers for utility. This is represented in the PPs to slot conversion above.
The sorcerer is much better over time. While the psion has the ability to blow a lot of power in a short amount of time, the sorcerer can use up his high level slots, and still fall back on fairly potent low level powers. The psion will have a few more high level "slots" but when they are gone, he is pretty much tapped out.
This is where the DMs gaming style comes into play. In a situation where the character must face multiple encounters before he can rest, the sorcerer is going to fair well. He'll probably blow two to four high level slots per battle, but when he runs out, his low level powers are still effective. Unless he has Empower Spell…. we’ll get to that.
The psion will likely dominate the battlefield during the first encounter if he thinks he can rest. If he knows he will have more encounters later, he is going to either hold back his power and thus spend a few rounds playing the part of cheerleader while occasionally tossing out a potent strike, or he'll be a walking artillery platform for two encounters at the most and be a spectator for the rest.
So in conclusion, if the party is in a position to rest after every battle, the psion is more potent. He can blow all of his points on his highest level powers, or spend all of his points augmenting, and thus rule the battlefield.
If the party is going to face multiple encounters, the sorcerer has the advantage. He can burn through his higher level spells in the first few encounters, and still be able to play an important roll with low level spells in the later encounters.
Damage Dealing – The Contest
So a psion (kineticist) and a sorcerer decide to settle the matter once and for all. The challenge: Who can deal the most damage? (Using average damage with no metapsionics or metamagic.) I hope my math and strategies are right here...
The Psion
Round 1: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Energy Missle (3pps); 3d6+3 = 13 points of Fire Damage
Total: 463 points of damage over 11 rounds
The Sorcerer
Round 1: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Cold Damage
Round 2: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Cold Damage
Round 3: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Cold Damage
Round 4: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Subtotal up to this point: 378 points of damage over 11 rounds.
The psion can deal roughly 85 more points of damage, but is completely out of power points by this point. He is now a cheerleader for the rest of the party. But let’s see what or sorcerer friend is doing…
Round 12: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 13: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 14: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 15: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 16: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 17: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 18: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 19: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 20: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 21: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 22: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 23: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 24: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 25: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 26: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 27: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 28: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 29: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 30: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 31: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 32: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 33: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 34: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 35: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Subtotal: 384 points of damage over the next 24 rounds and a lot of enemies are deafened.
Total: 762 points of damage over 35 rounds.
Of course, this is an extreme example of damage dealing gone crazy, but we can learn something from this. A sorcerer is less than 3 fireballs away from dealing the same amount of damage as the psion in the first 11 rounds. In addition, the slots the sorcerer used were not his highest level. He has a lot of potential left regarding non-damage dealing spells.
After the psion was dead in the water, the sorcerer still had all of his 4th level slots left. If he stopped concentrating on dealing pure damage, those 4th level slots would be much more effective. Even concentrating purely on damage, he is able to do another 384 points of damage before he joins the psion on the sidelines. Give him Empower spell, and well…. see below.
Damage Dealing with Metapsionics & Metamagic
So let's now take metapsionics and metamagic into consideration:
The Psion
Round 1: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Empowered Energy Ray (1+2=3pps); 1d6+1 x 150% = 7 points of Fire Damage
Total: 547 points of damage over 11 rounds.
This requires Empower Power and a successful check to regain focus every round which also requires an additional feat or two.
Sorcerer
Round 1: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Total: 471 points of damage over 11 rounds. This requires the Empower Spell Feat.
At this point, the sorcerer still has 4 3rd level spells, and he hasn't touched his 2nd, 1st, or 0 level spells at all. He is 20 points behind a psion with Empower Power in average damage, but he isn't out of spells. So let's see what the sorcerer is up to while our psion sits on the bench...
(Not wanting to shame his friend, he decides to stop using metamagic.)
Round 12: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 13: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 14: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 15: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 16: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 17: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 18: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 19: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 20: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 21: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 22: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 23: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 24: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 25: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 26: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 27: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 28: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 29: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 30: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 31: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 32: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 33: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 34: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 35: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
That’s an additional 467 points of damage over the next 24 rounds. All while our kineticist is busy performing his favorite cheers.
Total: 938 points of damage over 35 rounds.
So the basic sorcerer can't deal as much damage as the basic kineticist in 11 rounds. However, give him the Empower Spell feat, and deals an average of 8 more points than the kineticist in 11 rounds and has a load of still very effective lower level spells to fall back on.
For the cost of a single feat, the 10th level sorcerer can effectively dish out an average of 467 points of damage after he gets done dealing more damage than our psion buddy over 11 rounds of constant combat.
Without Empower, the sorcerer is considerably weaker than the psion over a short amount of time 985 points difference). With empower, he is capable of more damage in the same amount of time and he can continue to lay down damage long after the psion.
Give the kineticist Empower Power and you’ll see a difference of 76 points of damage. However, the psion must maintain focus each round, which is only reliable with the expenditure of several feats.
Other Considerations
Feats:
Psions get bonus feats. Sorcerers don't. We see from this test that it takes a metamagic feat to put the sorcerer on par with the psion when it comes to pure damage over a short period of time. So do we give the sorcerer a bonus feat? No.
For the price of one feat, not only deal more damage in the same 11 rounds as the psion, but becomes FAR superior in that he can go much longer before he's out of the fight.
The only problem I see is that Empower Spell in this case breaks a major rule of feats. "Feats should be nice, but never necessary."
But a psion gets more than just one bonus feat. However, all of those will be spent on focus related feats if he wants to use metapsionics to any degree. Or, he can use them to overcome the negative effects of being forced to specialize by selecting powers outside his specialty.
Familiar/Psicrystal:
Sorcerers get a free familiar. Psions get a bonus feat at first level that can be spent to get a psicrystal. Personally, I think this is pretty balanced. Disagree? Allow the sorcerer to swap his familiar for a bonus feat. I've been doing it in my game for years.
Armor Check Penalty:
Psions have a clear advantage here. No way to argue that.
Componants vs. Displays:
Psions can automatically attempt to suppress their displays. Sorcerers can't go without components without the proper feats. Psions have a clear advantage here.
Saving Throw DCs:
The above analysis does not factor in DCs for the spells and powers. While some Powers have a DC that scales with augmentation, the spells do not. However, I think this is a fair trade given the dramatic difference regarding how long each class can remain active.
In addition, the sorcerer can get feats that improve his DCs. these are a constant effect. Due to the focus requirement, the psion cannot make use of these feats without also either burning more feats or giving up metapsionics.
Conclusion
Assuming an average of 16 rounds of combat in one adventuring day, the sorcerer will still have plenty of spell slots open for utility spells to overcome challenges that can’t be solved through damage delivery. The psion however, is tapped out. In fact, he’ll even spend 5 of those 16 rounds sitting on the sidelines.
Over the short term, a basic psion can lay down more damage than a basic sorcerer in a short amount of time. Give the sorcerer Empower Spell, and he not only deals more damage than the psion over 11 rounds, but can continue to deal considerable amounts of damage long after the psion has become useless. The psion can jump back in the lead with Empower Power, but it isn’t as reliable as Empower Spell due to the need to retain his focus.
The psion has the advantage regarding non-damage dealing issues. He can pick his element of choice on the spot while a sorcerer can't do this without a few feats. The psion also doesn't have to worry about arcane spell failure or components.
Do these things make up for the several rounds he spends on the sidelines watching his sorcerer buddy continue the fight? I personally think it makes them about even. In fact, it could even be said that, in the right campaign, the sorcerer is the stronger of the two classes. Just give him Empower Spell and watch him go at it like the fireball slinging Energizer Bunny.
Screw it. I decided to fix the math, which had some interesting results.
My analysis and thoughts…
REVISED
”Psions” do not compare well with Sorcerers
Psions are forced to specialize. You can't compare a "psion" to anything because a "psion" doesn't exist. You want to compare a Kineticist to a Sorcerer, you need to keep in mind the fact that the Kineticist is focused on dealing damage and manipulating energy while the sorcerer is a little more open ended.
It'd be like comparing an Evocation Specialist against a Sorcerer. Who is more powerful there?
Also, don't plan on giving him many other powers like Astral Construct or Metamorphosis unless you take into account the fact that he will have to wait an additional two levels and spend a feat to get them.
But he gets bonus feats. This is true. However, those feats are needed for other things if the psion ever wants to make extensive use of metapsionics or anything that requires focus.
Damage is the Only Common Ground.
To compare the two, the only true real basis for analysis is damage output. The usefulness of other powers and spells is too dependent on other factors such as the DM's style, the environment, etc, and therefore can’t be taken into consideration here.
In general, damage output is the only thing the two classes can really agree on and is typically the first thing that causes the "overpowered" flag to be waved. Thus, it becomes the "measuring stick" that I’ll be using.
Number of Spells Cast vs. Number of Powers Manifested
Example characters:
10th level Human Kineticist (Int 16) vs. 10th level Human Sorcerer (Cha 16)
For the purposes of comparison, we'll assume that neither of them has access to any money or equipment.
Psion
Number of Powers Known: 21
Power Points: 103
Possible Conversion to Slots Configuration: 1-2 (2pps); 2-1 (3pps); 3-4 (20pps); 4-6 (42pps); 5-4 (36pps)
This is, I feel, a pretty realistic distribution of power usage for a psion. It represents a player who is concerned with trying to hit hard whenever possible, but is being just a little conservative. In this example, he gets 4 uses of his highest level powers.
Sorcerer
Number of Spells Known: 0-9; 1-5; 2-4; 3-3; 4-2; 5-1 (Total: 24)
Spells Castable per Day: 0-6; 1-7; 2-7; 3-7; 4-5; 5-3
Slot Conversion to Power Points: 3*+7+21+35+35+21 = 122
[size]* I counted 0 level spells as a half power point.[/size]
This assumes no augmentation is being done. So as you can see above, the psion gets an additional use of his highest, and next to highest, level powers each day when compared to a sorcerer, but severely lacks in lower level manifestations.
Let's look at the lower level stuff. Assuming there is no augmentation done, the low level psionics pale in comparison to low level spells due to augmentation. If the psion decides to augment, he can, but he is going to loose use of some of those higher level "slots".
In the end, I feel that if you are only looking at number of powers vs. number of spells, they are about equal. The psion has the option to blow more points up front, but players in most situations will manifest about an equal number of their highest level powers and next highest level powers as well as a few lower level powers for utility. This is represented in the PPs to slot conversion above.
The sorcerer is much better over time. While the psion has the ability to blow a lot of power in a short amount of time, the sorcerer can use up his high level slots, and still fall back on fairly potent low level powers. The psion will have a few more high level "slots" but when they are gone, he is pretty much tapped out.
This is where the DMs gaming style comes into play. In a situation where the character must face multiple encounters before he can rest, the sorcerer is going to fair well. He'll probably blow two to four high level slots per battle, but when he runs out, his low level powers are still effective. Unless he has Empower Spell…. we’ll get to that.
The psion will likely dominate the battlefield during the first encounter if he thinks he can rest. If he knows he will have more encounters later, he is going to either hold back his power and thus spend a few rounds playing the part of cheerleader while occasionally tossing out a potent strike, or he'll be a walking artillery platform for two encounters at the most and be a spectator for the rest.
So in conclusion, if the party is in a position to rest after every battle, the psion is more potent. He can blow all of his points on his highest level powers, or spend all of his points augmenting, and thus rule the battlefield.
If the party is going to face multiple encounters, the sorcerer has the advantage. He can burn through his higher level spells in the first few encounters, and still be able to play an important roll with low level spells in the later encounters.
Damage Dealing – The Contest
So a psion (kineticist) and a sorcerer decide to settle the matter once and for all. The challenge: Who can deal the most damage? (Using average damage with no metapsionics or metamagic.) I hope my math and strategies are right here...
The Psion
Round 1: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Energy Missle (3pps); 3d6+3 = 13 points of Fire Damage
Total: 463 points of damage over 11 rounds
The Sorcerer
Round 1: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Cold Damage
Round 2: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Cold Damage
Round 3: Cone of Cold (5th level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Cold Damage
Round 4: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Subtotal up to this point: 378 points of damage over 11 rounds.
The psion can deal roughly 85 more points of damage, but is completely out of power points by this point. He is now a cheerleader for the rest of the party. But let’s see what or sorcerer friend is doing…
Round 12: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 13: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 14: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 15: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 16: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 17: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 18: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 19: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 20: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 21: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 22: Shout (4th level Slot); 5d6 = 17 points of Sonic Damage + Deafened
Round 23: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 24: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 25: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 26: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 27: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 28: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 29: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 30: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 31: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 32: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 33: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 34: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Round 35: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 point of Cold Damage
Subtotal: 384 points of damage over the next 24 rounds and a lot of enemies are deafened.
Total: 762 points of damage over 35 rounds.
Of course, this is an extreme example of damage dealing gone crazy, but we can learn something from this. A sorcerer is less than 3 fireballs away from dealing the same amount of damage as the psion in the first 11 rounds. In addition, the slots the sorcerer used were not his highest level. He has a lot of potential left regarding non-damage dealing spells.
After the psion was dead in the water, the sorcerer still had all of his 4th level slots left. If he stopped concentrating on dealing pure damage, those 4th level slots would be much more effective. Even concentrating purely on damage, he is able to do another 384 points of damage before he joins the psion on the sidelines. Give him Empower spell, and well…. see below.
Damage Dealing with Metapsionics & Metamagic
So let's now take metapsionics and metamagic into consideration:
The Psion
Round 1: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Empowered Energy Ball (7+1+2=10pps); 7d6+7+1d6+1 x 150% = 54 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Empowered Energy Ray (1+2=3pps); 1d6+1 x 150% = 7 points of Fire Damage
Total: 547 points of damage over 11 rounds.
This requires Empower Power and a successful check to regain focus every round which also requires an additional feat or two.
Sorcerer
Round 1: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage
Round 2: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage
Round 3: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage
Round 4: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 5: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 6: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 7: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 8: Empowered Scorching Ray (4th level Slot); 8d6 x 150% = 42 points of Fire Damage
Round 9: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 10: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 11: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Total: 471 points of damage over 11 rounds. This requires the Empower Spell Feat.
At this point, the sorcerer still has 4 3rd level spells, and he hasn't touched his 2nd, 1st, or 0 level spells at all. He is 20 points behind a psion with Empower Power in average damage, but he isn't out of spells. So let's see what the sorcerer is up to while our psion sits on the bench...
(Not wanting to shame his friend, he decides to stop using metamagic.)
Round 12: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 13: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 14: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 15: Fire Ball (3rd level Slot); 10d6 = 35 points of Fire Damage
Round 16: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 17: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 18: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 19: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 20: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 21: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 22: Scorching Ray (2nd level Slot); 8d6 = 28 points of Fire Damage
Round 23: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 24: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 25: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 26: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 27: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 28: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 29: Magic Missle (1st level Slot); 5d4+5 = 17 points of Force Damage
Round 30: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 31: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 32: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 33: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 34: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
Round 35: Ray of Frost (0 level Slot); 1d3 = 2 points of Cold Damage
That’s an additional 467 points of damage over the next 24 rounds. All while our kineticist is busy performing his favorite cheers.
Total: 938 points of damage over 35 rounds.
So the basic sorcerer can't deal as much damage as the basic kineticist in 11 rounds. However, give him the Empower Spell feat, and deals an average of 8 more points than the kineticist in 11 rounds and has a load of still very effective lower level spells to fall back on.
For the cost of a single feat, the 10th level sorcerer can effectively dish out an average of 467 points of damage after he gets done dealing more damage than our psion buddy over 11 rounds of constant combat.
Without Empower, the sorcerer is considerably weaker than the psion over a short amount of time 985 points difference). With empower, he is capable of more damage in the same amount of time and he can continue to lay down damage long after the psion.
Give the kineticist Empower Power and you’ll see a difference of 76 points of damage. However, the psion must maintain focus each round, which is only reliable with the expenditure of several feats.
Other Considerations
Feats:
Psions get bonus feats. Sorcerers don't. We see from this test that it takes a metamagic feat to put the sorcerer on par with the psion when it comes to pure damage over a short period of time. So do we give the sorcerer a bonus feat? No.
For the price of one feat, not only deal more damage in the same 11 rounds as the psion, but becomes FAR superior in that he can go much longer before he's out of the fight.
The only problem I see is that Empower Spell in this case breaks a major rule of feats. "Feats should be nice, but never necessary."
But a psion gets more than just one bonus feat. However, all of those will be spent on focus related feats if he wants to use metapsionics to any degree. Or, he can use them to overcome the negative effects of being forced to specialize by selecting powers outside his specialty.
Familiar/Psicrystal:
Sorcerers get a free familiar. Psions get a bonus feat at first level that can be spent to get a psicrystal. Personally, I think this is pretty balanced. Disagree? Allow the sorcerer to swap his familiar for a bonus feat. I've been doing it in my game for years.
Armor Check Penalty:
Psions have a clear advantage here. No way to argue that.
Componants vs. Displays:
Psions can automatically attempt to suppress their displays. Sorcerers can't go without components without the proper feats. Psions have a clear advantage here.
Saving Throw DCs:
The above analysis does not factor in DCs for the spells and powers. While some Powers have a DC that scales with augmentation, the spells do not. However, I think this is a fair trade given the dramatic difference regarding how long each class can remain active.
In addition, the sorcerer can get feats that improve his DCs. these are a constant effect. Due to the focus requirement, the psion cannot make use of these feats without also either burning more feats or giving up metapsionics.
Conclusion
Assuming an average of 16 rounds of combat in one adventuring day, the sorcerer will still have plenty of spell slots open for utility spells to overcome challenges that can’t be solved through damage delivery. The psion however, is tapped out. In fact, he’ll even spend 5 of those 16 rounds sitting on the sidelines.
Over the short term, a basic psion can lay down more damage than a basic sorcerer in a short amount of time. Give the sorcerer Empower Spell, and he not only deals more damage than the psion over 11 rounds, but can continue to deal considerable amounts of damage long after the psion has become useless. The psion can jump back in the lead with Empower Power, but it isn’t as reliable as Empower Spell due to the need to retain his focus.
The psion has the advantage regarding non-damage dealing issues. He can pick his element of choice on the spot while a sorcerer can't do this without a few feats. The psion also doesn't have to worry about arcane spell failure or components.
Do these things make up for the several rounds he spends on the sidelines watching his sorcerer buddy continue the fight? I personally think it makes them about even. In fact, it could even be said that, in the right campaign, the sorcerer is the stronger of the two classes. Just give him Empower Spell and watch him go at it like the fireball slinging Energizer Bunny.
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Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
If you were to consider all attacks against single targets you might find the psion sticking with empowered augmented Mind Thrust...
for 10pp he gets 8d10 * 150% (average 66 damage) each round
for a total of 660 +3d10 (that last mind thrust) for a total of 675.5 damage.
On the other hand a 10th level Sorcerer can wreak havoc with Telekinesis manouevres at 800ft range, while the poor liddle psion (of whatever flavour) can't reach further than 200ft with his telekinesis.
Often it is wilderness adventures which have a low number of encounters per day, which makes ALL casters shine compared to non-casters, these very adventures often involve longer ranges and the sorcerer tends to have longer ranged spells.
The range doesn't come into play so much in dungeon adventures, but those tend to be multiple encounter affairs where a sorcerers endurance comes to the fore.
(tangent - I play a sorcerer (currently 11th) and despite several long major encounters in one day she still had plenty of spells to use of each level. The wizard and cleric were both almost out of spells at the end of the first encounter, completely out by the middle of the second major encounter and found it difficult to contribute in the third major encounter.)
for 10pp he gets 8d10 * 150% (average 66 damage) each round
for a total of 660 +3d10 (that last mind thrust) for a total of 675.5 damage.
On the other hand a 10th level Sorcerer can wreak havoc with Telekinesis manouevres at 800ft range, while the poor liddle psion (of whatever flavour) can't reach further than 200ft with his telekinesis.
Often it is wilderness adventures which have a low number of encounters per day, which makes ALL casters shine compared to non-casters, these very adventures often involve longer ranges and the sorcerer tends to have longer ranged spells.
The range doesn't come into play so much in dungeon adventures, but those tend to be multiple encounter affairs where a sorcerers endurance comes to the fore.
(tangent - I play a sorcerer (currently 11th) and despite several long major encounters in one day she still had plenty of spells to use of each level. The wizard and cleric were both almost out of spells at the end of the first encounter, completely out by the middle of the second major encounter and found it difficult to contribute in the third major encounter.)
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
Quick note: Don't round. We're dealing with hypotheticals here, we can handle a sorceror doing 3.75 damage with a spell. 
Rounding tends to throw off the numbers, though admittedly it may not be enough to matter, in some cases it might be.
Rounding tends to throw off the numbers, though admittedly it may not be enough to matter, in some cases it might be.
Testament
First Post
The whole Power Stone argument needs adressing here:
1. Brainburn is nasty. On those rare occaisons that you screw up the adressing of a stone, it hurts bad.
2. They're scrolls. So forget using a power from them without burning it up.
3. Specialisation! If you are a Psion, you can't even use a stone, Dorje or Psicrown to activate another disciplinary list's powers! Oooh, look at the mighty kineticist, can't even teleport without the expenditure of a feat to pull it off the Nomad list, and that's only when he's 11th level. Or he waits until he gets 8th level powers. Schyeah right.
Oh, and Thanee, where are you pulling your "free metamagic" argument from? It costs them more of those sweet sweet power points, draining more of their ammo for the day!
I reiterate, focusing solely on the ability of a Kineticist to dish out blatty death, and calling it broken on that basis DOES NOT make for a fair analysis. The Kineticist loses utility, while the Sorc can still take buffs and utility spells. Haste and Fly anyone? How about the stat kickers?
1. Brainburn is nasty. On those rare occaisons that you screw up the adressing of a stone, it hurts bad.
2. They're scrolls. So forget using a power from them without burning it up.
3. Specialisation! If you are a Psion, you can't even use a stone, Dorje or Psicrown to activate another disciplinary list's powers! Oooh, look at the mighty kineticist, can't even teleport without the expenditure of a feat to pull it off the Nomad list, and that's only when he's 11th level. Or he waits until he gets 8th level powers. Schyeah right.
Oh, and Thanee, where are you pulling your "free metamagic" argument from? It costs them more of those sweet sweet power points, draining more of their ammo for the day!
I reiterate, focusing solely on the ability of a Kineticist to dish out blatty death, and calling it broken on that basis DOES NOT make for a fair analysis. The Kineticist loses utility, while the Sorc can still take buffs and utility spells. Haste and Fly anyone? How about the stat kickers?
Sorren
First Post
Plane Sailing said:
My psion uses Mind Thrust on occasion. I'd consider it about equel to Energy Missle. It does more damage when it hits, but it's all or nothing while Energy Missle is save for half.
If you hit with a Mind Thrust about half the time, the damage is about the same. And don't forget that a lot of creatures are outright immune.
Telekinesis is VERY nice, but it's also very dependent on the enviroment. Like Mind Thrust, it's often useless, but when you can hit with it, you can hit hard.
Sorren
First Post
Patryn of Elvenshae said:Quick note: Don't round. We're dealing with hypotheticals here, we can handle a sorceror doing 3.75 damage with a spell.
Rounding tends to throw off the numbers, though admittedly it may not be enough to matter, in some cases it might be.
It's close enough. I'm not going through it again.
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