Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[MoogleEmpMog]

A regular caster can get spell penetration, spell focus, and a metamagic and use them all at the same time. The psion must choose which one he wants and without further feats he only gets to do this once per battle (or spend a whole round doing nothing in an attempt to get focus back). Without a huge feat expenditure he cant even use two of them at the same time. Want to use a metamagic and power penetration? sorry, you will need a list of feats and you cant do it every round, period.

I don't have enough experience with 3.5 psionics to weigh in on this thread as a whole, but I just have to say: I weep for the party whose sorcerer burned his handful of feats on spell penetration and spell focus. Those feats are almost always a waste for wizards, much less sorcerers.

 

[Scion]

3.5 spell focus is pretty worthless, but penetration is nice. Having all of your spells effected by it by default means that whenever you need it, even if you dont know that you do, there it is helping out.

If you never see anything with SR then it wont matter sure, but the higher level one gets the more likely things are to have it

Still, even with one being marginal at low levels and the other being worthless almost always at least the caster type always has them on for any spells they apply to. The psion must pick and choose and expend focus to use it at all. Apply metamagic or try to get through SR/PR? Choose between a + to the dc or power penetration.

Major drawback.

 

[Spatula]

Sorren, thanks for doing the comparison.

How so? A 10th level sorcerer gets 3 more spells than a psion gets powers and the psion is forced to specialize.

Like Thanee says, sorcerers get loads of cantrips that don't really count for much, and know very few of their higher level powers when they first get access to a spell level. A psion can learn two 5th level powers at 9th level (the sorcerer doesn't even have access to 5th level spells at that point), and can pick up two more at 10th (when the sorcerer gets a single 5th level spell). Over time, the sorcerer's spells known at each spell level comes to be more or less equal to the psion's powers known, but the psion gets it all upfront while the sorcerer must wait. A sorcerer will be 15th level before he knows four 5th level spells.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Bah
I know I upset you in the thread about lances, but to ignore my two dwarfs from the fighter/psiwar thread hurts
I will have to post some numbers in this thread to gain the noble Lord's attention

My apologies, Majere, I do remember your build on the Fighter vs. PsiWar thread, and it too was illuminating. I'll never doubt a high-level fighter's powers again.

As for this thread, it simply will not be as illuminating without actual builds critiqued against a series of varied challenges, as was the case in the other thread. Of course, being far too lazy and far too ignorant of the subtleties of the two classes in question, I can hardly demand others do that kind of work.

 

[Thanee]

the save dc's are mostly exactly the same, and generally for less damage. The few that have higher dc's (I believe there are 2 powers that fit this description, only 2, so 'usually' is a bit faudulant).

Nope, many/most augmentable power increases DC over an arcanists spell.

Several of your pluses are actually exactly the same thing but rephrased.

Which? You mean the components and metamagic feats? Mainly emphasized the (IMHO quite big) advantage of grapple and silence "immunity" there, whereas the other one is about adding spell levels more. Or did you mean the double mentioning of flexibility? Those are two very different things as well, the one is simply how the PP can be distributed over the day (few highly augmented or many unaugmented powers, or somewhere in between), and the other points to individual powers, which can provide multiple different effects (the Energy line's ability to choose energy type and save type being the prime example here) or are modular (like Dominate, where you can choose a high/low duration depending on what is needed).

The only item I can remotely agree to is the "no need for metamagic feats", which is partially (but certainly not fully) overlapping with other items (the higher save DC and the in-built flexibility of powers). But that's only a very small area these have in common and the primary reason for each item is fairly different. I tried to not include multiple items in a single line as much as possible there.

You ignored no scaling.

Absolutely not, it's included in the initial comparison to full degree.

You completely underplay how incredibly bad having to use focus is.

That's something that can be argued, though, since in your opinion, as you have said multiple times, Spell Focus (and thus Psionic Endowment) is useless and metamagic (and thus metapsioncs) is too weak, anyways, also don't forget, that psions barely need metapsioncs at all to get to the point the sorcerer reaches with metamagic only.

This leaves only Psionic Penetration to be used with focus, thus hardly a limit at all.

A regular caster can get spell penetration, spell focus, and a metamagic and use them all at the same time. The psion must choose which one he wants and without further feats he only gets to do this once per battle (or spend a whole round doing nothing in an attempt to get focus back).

Of course, this is the disadvantage of psionic focus pretty much, that only one of those feats can be used at a time. Psionic Meditation is just one feat (they gain many more bonus feats, especially if you also consider the meta-feats they do not need) to make them worthwhile and the feats to be used with psionic focus (mostly Endowment and Penetration) are still better (easily twice as good, so with only one feat usage you get the effective benefit of two, anyways) than either Spell Focus or Spell Penetration, so have to be limited in another way.

Yet, I listed it as a disadvantage, since I do agree, that it is more limiting than what these advantages compensate for!

There are some very massive downsides there which you seem to just ignore, these need to be added in for any kind of comparison to be made.

Which are?

Bye
Thanee

P.S. BTW, I also think Spell Focus is too weak now (and Endowment is in the same boat) at only +1 (should be +2), tho I do think the old Greater Spell Focus (+4) is too much, unless it has at least a high caster level requirement (12th+ ~ 15th+).

 

[green slime]

Nope, every single augmentable power increases DC over an arcanists spell.

Absolutely, completely false, Thanee. I suggest you dust off your XPH and read it again.

Energy Retort
Psychokinesis [see text]
Level: Psion/wilder 3
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal and close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); see text
Targets: You and creature or object attacking you; see text
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Fortitude half; see text
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 5

Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You weave a field of potential energy of the chosen type around your body. The first successful attack made against you in each round during the power’s duration prompts a response from the field with out any effort on your part. The attack may be physical, the effect of a power, or the effect of a spell (including spell-like, supernatural, and extraordinary abilities). An “ectoburst” discharges from the field, targeting the source of the attack and dealing 4d6 points of damage of the chosen energy type. To be affected, a target must be within close range, you must have line of sight and line of effect to it, and you must be able to identify the source of the attack. The ectoburst is a ranged touch attack made using your base attack bonus plus your key ability modifier for your manifesting class.

Cold
A field of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die. The saving throw to reduce damage from a cold retort is a Fortitude save instead of a Reflex save.

Electricity
Manifesting a field of this energy type provides a +2 bonus to the save DC and a +2 bonus on manifester level checks for the purpose of overcoming power resistance.

Fire
A field of this energy type deals +1 point of damage per die.

Sonic
A field of this energy type deals –1 point of damage per die and ignores an object’s hardness.

This power’s subtype is the same as the type of energy you manifest.

Augment
For every additional power point you spend, this power’s duration increases by 1 minute.

Augmentable, but the save DC does not increase.

The VERY first power I looked up to check your statement. Shall I list more?

D-F (because I have this page up)
Powers Augmentable, but with no increase to save DC.
Deceleration
Disintegrate, Psionic
Ectoplasmic Cocoon, Mass
Empathic Transfer, Hostile
Eradicate Invisibility
False Sensory Input

I'm not doing this through the entire power list.

 

[Thanee]

Oh, ok, that's right, of course. Sorry for the inaccuracy!

Then make it many/most (I said "usually" in the list, which should fit pretty good) of the augmentable powers. It's still an advantage, as there is not a single spell which improves the DC when scaled up.

Bye
Thanee

P.S. I just had a nice idea how to better demonstrate, what I am trying to say in my initial comparison (the stuff before the +/- list in my post above), not sure when I can get this up, tho. This should also show why exactly I think, that Sorren's damage comparison isn't a good method to compare the classes. It'll take a bit of preparation, however, so don't expect this too soon.

 

[Majere]

If the thread kindly posted by droid allows me to complete the build I will hapily run average damage calculations againt 4 CR10 monster of my choice.
Contrary to the post retorting my dea of running the numbers, I will not be rolling dice. I will take average damage and results.

Infact I just had an even better Idea if Thane and one of the psion supporting posters are willing.
Thane posts the most twinked out possible 10th level psion he can.
One of the psi supporters post a twinked out 10th level sorcerer.

Each poster is, of course, trying to prove their character is over powered.
After they are built I will reveal the 4 monsters and each player may reveal their tactics (for instance I imagine neither person will wants to us fireballs on salamanders etc). Ill run the average damage caculations. and people can see how each fairs. This will allow the flexibility of powers in terms of picking element/save and dc heightening to be compared agaist the metamagic of sorcerers.

If people are willing then basic rules are :
32 point build
PHB, DMG, PSI-HB books only
Average gold.
Average damage will be taken including the effects of SR and saves.

The reason I suggest this is:
1) Id have to learn the who psi rulebook to make a properly twinked psi.
2) Im at a hockey tournament so I dont have time to learn all the rules but I can do the number crunching no problem

One other thought.
The basic blasts of a kinetisist seem to be energy missile/ball/blast.
Couldnt a psi pick another sepcialisation and then use extended knowledge to aquire these 3 spells nd have mucht he same kick as a kinetisist ?
Would this be better than playing a kinetisist and using extended knowledge to increase your flexibility ?
It would seem to me to be easier to pick up the majority of the blasts via feats than all the utility spells.

Majere

 

[Scion]

Nope, many/most augmentable power increases DC over an arcanists spell.

I count two that 'can' be and several that cannot. The rest are usually pretty much equal.

So if two is 'usually' then which three powers are you looking at and why are you ignoring all of the rest?

Just to head off certain wrong assertions that I feel you may put forward lets take an example.

This: Augment: For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6). For each extra two dice of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.

means that the dc will stay exactly the same as the arcane/divine equivalent. Everytime 2 pp are put in it is the same as raising the effective level by 1. In the same words, the dc stays exactly the same.

grapple ... "immunity"

I guess you mean that someone cannot cover the psions mouth while in a grapple since psions have to meet the same conditions to manifest as casters do to cast spells in a grapple. Especially a pretty hefty concentration check.

While it may be easier for the psion than for the mage, it is still a very far cry from 'immunity'. Especially since several of the spells a mage is most likely to attempt while in a grapple are vocal only, so adding in still spell isnt terribly difficult (have the rod in hand, prep it ahead of time, whatever).

Unless one is a sorc of course, but then there are many such problems with the sorc. No need to make one class worse because of the mistakes with another.

Absolutely not, it's included in the initial comparison to full degree.

Would that be:
+ usually higher save DCs on augmented powers (further increased by

or
- lack of good party buffs, often powers are personal only

as the 'initial comparison'? As I was mentioning problems with your list since it was not on there. Since it is a list of pro's and con's then all pro's and con's should be listed, not just ones you mentioned almost in passing in some paragraph above it.

Scaling is a pretty major factor that you more or less toss away. Effectively the energy powers have given up scaling to get the minimum amount of damage for their level of power but the ability to shift elemental types and augment.

Trading in scaling for just augmentation would be a pretty major step downwards. It is giving up the diamond for a piece of coal. Sure, the coal is nice, but the diamond is just plain shiny. Hence why they get more than that in return.

That's something that can be argued, though, since in your opinion, as you have said multiple times, Spell Focus (and thus Psionic Endowment) is useless and metamagic (and thus metapsioncs) is too weak, anyways, also don't forget, that psions barely need metapsioncs at all to get to the point the sorcerer reaches with metamagic only.

This leaves only Psionic Penetration to be used with focus, thus hardly a limit at all.

So lets see here. We have various feats as options. For the caster they can get them and they apply whenever X is used, or they can spend a higher slot to get whatever pile of metamagics they have and want to use. Vs the psion who has to expend focus to use 'any' of them and so effectively can only use one at a time. Beyond that, it means that anything else they want to use focus on cannot be done (some feats require holding focus, those are now useless once focus is gone, other feats require expending focus, those are now useless as you have no focus to spend).

This is a 'huge' penalty. Even larger than the sorcs having to use a full round action to get off a metamagiced spell. He can do that every round. In order for the psion to be able to do so every round he would need to spend yet another feat and then hope he rolls high enough in his check. Also, regaining focus provokes an aoo unless yet another check is made.

Once again, this penalty is very large indeed.

Psions need metamagics for exactly the same reasons that other casters do, to do something better that was difficult to do before. However, it is very difficult for them to do so with consistancy.

Which are?

For starters? forced specialization that is much more strict than the wizards specialization. You have, 'more restricted by discipline lists' but this is no where near what is actually going on, it merely hints at the iceburg. Also, you say it can be partially overcome through feats, great, but then one is spending a single feat for a single power. This is not going to help the problem much or at all, especially since it burns resources that could be used for something else. Like say getting psychic meditation just to 'maybe' be able to use focus more than once per battle.

 

[Sorren]

So would somebody explain to me how the psion is broken? Last I heard, the term broken was used to define a class/system/spell/item that completely disrupted the game, making it essentially unplayable.

Last time I checked, my game sessions seemed playable. Enjoyable even.

So a psion can blow all of his power up front, while a sorcerer is forced to spread it out a bit. Who cares? The psion is forced to specialize, the sorcerer isn't. And the sorcerer is hardly useless up front. As I've shown, he can deal as much damage as the psion and it's not like the rest of his spells are useless.

He clearly has better buffing ability that the psion, and with only a few exceptions (Astral Construct, which of course a kineticist has to take a feat to get) the statement that powers are as good a multiple spells is pure crap. There are easily as many spells that are as good as multiple powers.

So if they aren’t broken because they deal too much damage in combat, why exactly are they broken?

And don’t casually dismiss the usefulness of 0 level spells. While they are only 0 level for the sorcerer, a psion who wants the equivalent has to burn a 1st level power.

Psions certainly have some things going for them. The flexibility is very nice, as is the lack of components and a few other things. However, the fact that a sorcerer is still going strong over 20 rounds longer than a psion can’t easily be dismissed.

So a psion hits hard with a augmented Energy Missle this round, the next round he may not be able to do anything. If the sorcerer casts a fireball this round and next round, who is more powerful?

The psion’s strategy is to hit hard a few times. The sorcerer’s is to hit hard a lot more times. By what crazy logic does that result in a broken psion? The 10th level psion I showed was FINISHED after 11 rounds. If any more encounters or challenges of any sort pop up that day, he is all but helpless.

So because of augmented saving throw DCs and energy types selected on the fly, he’ll probably do a little better than the sorcerer during those first 11 rounds. But then what? Where is he during that 3rd encounter? He’d doing nothing. He’s dealing 0 damage, casting 0 buff spells, healing 0 damage, manifesting 0 utility powers, and manifesting 0 strategy based powers,

The sorcerer on the other hand, is doing all of these, and he’s doing them well. In fact, while the psion is sitting in the corner picking his nose, the sorcerer can be casting another:

4 freely scaled 3rd level spells – Example: Fireball, 10d6 damage each
7 freely scaled 2nd level spells – Example: Scorching Ray, 8d6 damage each
7 freely scaled 1st level spells – Example: Magic Missle, 5d4+5 guaranteed damage each

Sure, the DCs aren’t super high. So what. At least he is doing SOMETHING. And who cares about damage and DCs. While the psion is doing nothing (and his player is napping), the sorcerer could be casting buffs, invisibility, dispel magic etc.

Turtle vs. Hare
…and I believe the turtle wins in the end…

So in my opinion. The psion’s advantages (scaled DCs, selectable energy types) make him a better artillery platform up front, for about 2-1/2 encounters. But to make up for it, that’s all he can do. Done.

The sorcerer trails slightly behind the psion for the first few encounters, but after that, you are comparing a still fully capable (18+ spells left) sorcerer to a useless psion. That’s like comparing a 7th level sorcerer to a 7th level commoner.

This also assumes that the psion’s player is willing to blow it all. If he is smart, and at least a little conservative, the classes come out more equal. The psions advantages (scaled DCs and energy choice) will be balanced by the fact that, if he doesn’t give it his all, his powers will be less effective than the sorcerer’s freely scaled spells.

So a power that’s not fully scaled + psions advantages = roughly about the same as the sorcerer’s freely scaled spell.

So if the psion takes that approach, he’ll be able to go longer. Let’s say 18 rounds.
So for 18 rounds, the sorcerer and psion are on pretty equal ground. Then what? The psion STILL runs out of power and the sorcerer continues on.

But what if there are only 18 rounds of combat that day? Well then, the psion and sorcerer spent the day as equals. How is that broken?