Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Sorren]

Exactly.

If it doesn't cause problems, it isn't a problem itself.

Simple calling it broken doesn't make it true.

Has anyone actually had a problem with a psion in the group? Did it detract from the game? Was the sorcerer's player bitter?

Here's a good one...

Was he bitter because the psion was more powerful, or because it was a new and interesting class that did things differently.

Check out this scenerio:

Party consists of a fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard

When played from 1st level, the players are used to 12 points of damage to a single enemy being a good hit. When 5th level rolls around, and that first fireball goes off, everyone is jazzed. *BOOM* Look at the power!

Now do they start screaming that the wizard is unbalanced? No. It's expected, but it's still a little shocking to see the wizard obliterate several enemies at once where previously he wasn't that effective.

Now, same party, but with a psion instead of a wizard.

Psion slings a fully augmented energy missle for the first time. *BOOM* Look at the power!

Now do they start screaming that the psion is unbalanced? Maybe. They've never seen the psion before, it's new, and that much power is as much of a shock when seen for the first time.

I think it's a matter of perspective. Psionics are different. When I first saw Energy Missle and Mind Thrust, I assumed they were a mistake. Surelly this would be errataed.

Then I played with them as written. Not a problem. Psions are just different, no more of less powerful in the grand scheme of things, just different. They fill a different roll than the sorcerer. They hit hard and fast, and then they're done.

Is that unbalanced? In a typical encounter, if the psions does 30 points of damage one round, and 0 the next, is that unbalanced compared to the sorcerer who does 20 points the first round, and 20 points the next?

I don't think so. It's just different.

I mean sure, sometimes you need to do damage fast. The psion is your man. Sometimes you need long lasting spellcasting, the sorcerer is your man. You don't ask a fighter to solve your social challenges. You don't ask the bard to be your front line fighter. Don't ask the psion to be a sorcerer, and don't ask the sorcerer to be a psion.

 

[Psion]

I still remember a new player who had never played 3e before joined our group... who was in shock at how much damage the rogue was doing, and was decrying it as unbalanced.

 

[Sorren]

I remember a post years ago regarding rogues getting two sneak attacks from fighting with two weapons. The poster couldn't be convinced that it worked that way. It was simply broken, and stupid, if that was the case. He couldn't get over how it worked in 2nd edition.

Even after I posted the contents of an email I recieved from Monte Cook, explaining the rule, he was convinced that it would make the rogue a replacement for the fighter.

Several years, and several two-weapon fighting rogues later, I still haven't seen a problem.

I also remember people freaking out about the old 3.0 psionics. Several were convinced that even those psions were too powerful.

I think some people are suspiscious of anything new. They watch it like a hawk, wating for it to show signs of unbalance. Then, as soon as the thing in question gets an above average result, they decry it broken.

I know my DM freaked the time I rolled 2 10's on a successfull augmented 2d10 mindthrust. He suddenly forgot about the previous couple of failed attempts (passed saves) and the round or two that I spent doing nothing.

It's like a critical hit. It's not broken if the barbarian, even at 1st level, deals 20 points of damage. But, if the new class/power does it, suddenly everyone is raising eyebrows and forgetting about the previous failed/average attempts.

After a little play, people get used to it and it becomes just another class/power/spell whatever.

 

[Spatula]

Sorren's analysis is leaving me rather ho-hum, if only because I think he's underestimating the power of doing lots of damage fast.

If the Psion can put down high DC, energy-specified, target-specified, save-specified boom on opponents, and do in three rounds what it would take a socerer to accomplish in 5 (for example), that's very significant.

Because it means that the stuff the Psion is trying to kill dies faster, thus:

1) The party cleric does not have to waste healing spells as quickly, because the enemy didn't get a chance to do as much damage.
2) Other party casters save more of their spells, becuase the enemy dropped faster.
3) Other party resources are not used up as rapidly (rages for barbarians, etc. etc.).

This is essentially the argument against 3.0 haste. It allows spellcasters to unload their spells twice as fast, basically making them twice as effective for the duration of the spell. Sure, a hasted spellcaster burns out fast, but will dominate the battlefield until that point (and when the spellcaster is out of spells, the party will be looking to retreat & recover unless prevented from doing so by story elements).

It's also the reason the Mystic Theurge isn't over-powerful (assuming that one doesn't have access to 3.0 haste). Having tons of spells is nice, but you can't go through them any faster that if you had fewer, and you're probably never going to be able to use all of them on any given day.

Sorren, this thread isn't about the psion being broken, it's about whether the psion (specifically the kineticist) is a better artillery platform than the sorcerer/wizard. Thanee's probably the only one posting here in this thread that thinks the XPH is broken.

 

[Sorren]

Sorren, this thread isn't about the psion being broken, it's about whether the psion (specifically the kineticist) is a better artillery platform than the sorcerer/wizard. Thanee's probably the only one posting here in this thread that thinks the XPH is broken.

Then my opinion is simple:

It depends.

Short term (2 encounters): Yes.
Long term (3+ encounters): No.

At 3+ encounters, the bard is a better artillery platform than the psion.

 

[Thanee]

Thanee's probably the only one posting here in this thread that thinks the XPH is broken.

Nah, I think the psion is all-around too powerful (while being the same "type of character") compared to the sorcerer (and also the wizard).

I don't think and never said, the XPH as a whole was broken (just the psion and a dozen other individual things (like a couple powers)). In fact, in some threads I argued against stuff from the XPH being broken (i.e. the Elan).

I have almost no problem with the wilder for example, whom I consider also underpowered compared to the psion.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Sorren]

Nah, I think the psion is all-around too powerful (while being the same "type of character") compared to the sorcerer (and also the wizard).

I think that's the heart of your problem. The psion is no more "the same type of character" as a wizard or sorcerer than the cleric is.

For that matter, I wouldn't even call a kineticist and a seer "the same type of character".

If you try to play a psion like a sorcerer, you probably aren't going to have a lot of fun. You'll hit the enemy pretty hard a few times, and then you'll be sitting there bored, watching the other players.

We've all tossed around some extreme examples in this thread. A strategic psion player isn't going to be blowing everything like that. He is going to hold off a bit, conserve his power, and do things more interesting than "Energy Missle, Energy Missle, Energy Missle, Energy Missle, Energy Missle"

In a realistic situation, the psion won't always augment to the max, despite the fact that the spellcasters always scale to the max.

At least, I know I don't.

 

[two]

Good point

This is essentially the argument against 3.0 haste. It allows spellcasters to unload their spells twice as fast, basically making them twice as effective for the duration of the spell. Sure, a hasted spellcaster burns out fast, but will dominate the battlefield until that point (and when the spellcaster is out of spells, the party will be looking to retreat & recover unless prevented from doing so by story elements).

It's also the reason the Mystic Theurge isn't over-powerful (assuming that one doesn't have access to 3.0 haste). Having tons of spells is nice, but you can't go through them any faster that if you had fewer, and you're probably never going to be able to use all of them on any given day.

Sorren, this thread isn't about the psion being broken, it's about whether the psion (specifically the kineticist) is a better artillery platform than the sorcerer/wizard. Thanee's probably the only one posting here in this thread that thinks the XPH is broken.

Very good point. I was definately in the "3.0 haste is an absurd 3rd level spell" camp, and we all know what happened to that spell in 3.5. I don't think many people have house-ruled 3.0 haste into 3.5 campaigns. (some have, I'm sure, not many). I honestly do think 3.5 is a better game with haste nerfed, without doubt.

I guess the question is (which I'm not clear on, really): how MUCH damage can a Psion really do in 3 rounds?

For example, what's a Psion's damage output for 3 rounds of combat, 3 times per day (9 total rounds)?

Is it really significantly higher than a sorcerer's 3 rounds of owie? (by a significant margin)?

Unless my math is bad, by the way, a +2 or +3 advantage on DC of psionic stuff vs. spell stuff should be "calculable". I'm no whiz, but...

If the fireball spell is DC 18,
and the Psion effect is DC 20,

doesn't that mean that 2/20 of the time the Psion will do full damage, while the spell only does half damage, so add something like 1/10 * full psionic damage to the psionic damage average output? Plus maybe up the DC by 1 or 2 to account for energy-type specification and save specification (just for the math).

Or something like that? I'm sure I screwed it up. Ignore me.

 

[Sorren]

Look back a few pages, I detailed 35 rounds of combat.

I'll post a bit here to save you the effort though.

10th level Kineticist, Int 16

Round 1: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage, Reflex save DC:20
Round 2: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage, Reflex save DC:20
Round 3: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage, Reflex save DC:20

Total Damage: 135

10th level Sorcerer, Cha 16
Round 1: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage, Reflex save DC:16
Round 2: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage, Reflex save DC:16
Round 3: Empowered Fire Ball (5th level Slot); 10d6 x 150% = 52 points of Fire Damage, Reflex save DC:16

Total Damage: 156

The Sorcerer does more damage on average (21 pts.), but is required to take the Empower Spell feat, and his save DCs are lower.

I'd say this puts the psion in the lead. The damage is lower, but he is probably going to hit more effectivly with it because of the better DCs and the ability to swap up energy types. (But remember, if he goes to anything but cold or fire, his total damage drops by another 30 points.)

This can go on for 11 rounds, at which time the psions is done. The sorcerer still has roughly 18-24 more rounds of spells, all of which scale freely.

 

[Nail]

Has anyone actually had a problem with a psion in the group? Did it detract from the game? Was the sorcerer's player bitter?

These are rhetorical questions, right?

Lemme put it another way: I notice psions appear in smack-down threads an awful lot. Not too many sorcerers make that cut......

BTW: what lvl is your psion? Point buy or rolled? Others in your groupare what classes? ....just curious.....