Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Thanee]

@green slime: I absolutely agree, as I have said before, that tallying up damage isn't very meaningful. I just wanted to show some numbers, what can actually be done.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Droid101]

And how many people here think that the inclusion of Schism in the XPH is a good thing? Given the nerf Haste received?

Ohhh, I get to do an extra Mind Thrust for 1d10 damage, ooooh.[/sarcasm]

 

[Sorren]

Ohhh, I get to do an extra Mind Thrust for 1d10 damage, ooooh.[/sarcasm]

I.AM.A.GOD!!!



It's actually a handy power, but it's costs (-6 levels, a feat, a power slot, the cost to manifest schism, the cost to manifest the new power, and a round to manifest schism) keep it from being an uber-power.

 

[Thanee]

At 10th level it certainly isn't very hot. But at 13th+ level it starts to become a force that easily makes the difference in a fight. And the costs aren't that high, really, since you do not have to pay the 6 level difference as you have for Quicken Power, it's actually superior to Quicken even, which is quite good at higher levels already. And it can be done in addition to Quicken, too.

Well, I think it's really a pretty scary power at high levels, where speed slowly becomes the most important factor in combat.

It's only really relevant at those high levels, however. Even at moderate levels its power is rather limited.

Bye
Thanee

 

[drothgery]

The psions run out of PP all the time in my game.

... and that's why Aral [my artillery-focused kineticist in Spatula's game] knows how to make power stones. Though I'm guessing you're trying to design major encounters to use up almost all of our resources.

Psions are better artillery than either the wizard or the sorcerer, which is a shame. It's also a big disconnect from the flavor of psionics in previous editions. If I could do it all over again, I would ban all the energy powers, and move some of the better TK powers into the kineticist list to fill the holes that would cause.

I'm not at all sure kineticists are better artillery than wizards, or, more importantly, than evokers. They're certainly better than Sorcerers, but Sorcerers are underpowered anyway.

One thing, though; someone mentioned that psions were limited to using a single metapsionic feat per power. Couldn't a psion with the Psicrystal Containment feat (which lets you hold a second psionic focus in your psicrystal) use two, or did I miss a rule that would prevent you from doing that? Not that this would make sense for anyone except a very high-level psion; empower power isn't better than a straight augmentation until 8th level, and I'm not sure where the break-even point would be on a double augment vs. a single-augment.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

grapple ... "immunity"

I guess you mean that someone cannot cover the psions mouth while in a grapple since psions have to meet the same conditions to manifest as casters do to cast spells in a grapple. Especially a pretty hefty concentration check.

There are very major differences that you're ignoring here. The concentration check is the same for sor/wiz/clr and psion characters casting spells or manifesting powers in a grapple. However, a pinned psion is at no disadvantage in terms of manifesting powers. A pinned sor/wiz/clr cannot cast spells with ANY components.

When "merely" in a grapple, a sor/wiz/clr cannot cast spells with somatic components or material components not in hand. (Which is, in most cases, 90% of said Sor/Wiz/Clr's spells). The psion is not hindered beyond the concentration check.

And speaking of the "hefty" concentration check. . . well, it isn't that hefty. It's very difficult at low levels. By mid levels, it's doable roughly 40-50% of the time. By level 14 or so, it will often be trivial. Like a creature with SLAs, a psion in a grapple can simply manifest his powers. A sor/wiz/clr needs to get out of the grapple pronto in order to contribute to the combat. (I once ran a combat of an advanced death slaad and two blue slaad against a 12th level party. In the second round, they were all caught in an Evard's black tentacles. . . and kept on blasting the party with fingers of death and chaos hammers and lightning bolts anyway since they were better off taking their chances on the concentration checks than trying to break out of the grapple (and possibly failing). For psions, it would be the same. For sor/wiz/clr--heck no! They either get out of the grapple or they're dead meat).

While it may be easier for the psion than for the mage, it is still a very far cry from 'immunity'. Especially since several of the spells a mage is most likely to attempt while in a grapple are vocal only, so adding in still spell isnt terribly difficult (have the rod in hand, prep it ahead of time, whatever).

The reason that the spells a mage is most likely to attempt while in a grapple are verbal only is because THOSE ARE PRACTICALLY THE ONLY SPELLS HE CAN CAST. And, of course, if he's pinned, he can't do anything at all so he has to either get out of the grapple or die. A grappled sor/wiz/clr is out of the fight and has to take their actions to get out of the grapple and back into the fight. (Not coincidentally, those verbal only spells you mention as the most likely to be cast while in a grapple are dimension door and teleport).

Unless one is a sorc of course, but then there are many such problems with the sorc. No need to make one class worse because of the mistakes with another.

Sorcerors are actually a lot better off in a grapple than wizards. If it comes down to it, a sorceror with still spell can apply to any spell he darn well feels like on the fly. Grappled by Evard's Black Tentacles? Well, if he can't get out, at least he can make a DC 24 concentration check and blast away with stilled fireballs. Pinned? Well, he can try to cast a silent dimension door. Wizards can prep a dimension door or a stilled spell but if they need more than one or if it won't work for some reason (hit with a dimensional anchor spell, etc), they're out of options.

Grappling is probably the biggest weakness of ordinary spellcasters. (That's why a lot of higher level wizards prep a dimension door, a stilled blink, or some other such effect to prevent the enemy from taking them out of combat entirely with a simple and easily available manuever). For Psions, it's not nearly that kind of an Achilles heel.

 

[Thanee]

One thing, though; someone mentioned that psions were limited to using a single metapsionic feat per power. Couldn't a psion with the Psicrystal Containment feat (which lets you hold a second psionic focus in your psicrystal) use two, or did I miss a rule that would prevent you from doing that?

You can do that, of course. It has been mentioned by someone (Scion?) also, I think.

The cost to get there is pretty high, tho, and probably not really worth it, unless you want to use plenty feats, that utilize focus, but that's not a very reasonable strategy, anyways.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Sorcerors are actually a lot better off in a grapple than wizards. If it comes down to it, a sorceror with still spell can apply to any spell he darn well feels like on the fly.

Actually not so, since that takes a full round action and they are limited to casting spells as a standard action in a grapple.

Other than that, you got exactly the point, of course, and why I think it's totally to mention this as a seperate advantage for psions, as they are practically "immune" to the primary anti-caster tactic.

Bye
Thanee

 

[green slime]

A DC20 Concentration check is guaranteed at 10th level.

13+2 (Con) +10 from Third Eye of Concentration.... Of course if this is too expensive, you could grab the Item Creation feat and create it yourself. Possibly even creating a smaller version (+5?)

 

[green slime]

At 10th level it certainly isn't very hot. But at 13th+ level it starts to become a force that easily makes the difference in a fight. And the costs aren't that high, really, since you do not have to pay the 6 level difference as you have for Quicken Power, it's actually superior to Quicken even, which is quite good at higher levels already. And it can be done in addition to Quicken, too.

Well, I think it's really a pretty scary power at high levels, where speed slowly becomes the most important factor in combat.

It's only really relevant at those high levels, however. Even at moderate levels its power is rather limited.

Bye
Thanee

NOOOO!!!!!!!!

We are agreeing on something!!!!

AARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! The inhumainty of it all!!! Where will it all end!!!!! WHERE ARE ALL THE CHILDRENNNN???!!!


*runs screaming into the distance*