Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Nail]

.... but he is probably going to hit more effectivly with it because of the better DCs and the ability to swap up energy types. (But remember, if he goes to anything but cold or fire, his total damage drops by another 30 points.)

And if the creature is resistant to fire, the sorcerer is in even bigger trouble, empowered or no.

Moreover, the sorcerer (using metamagic) can't use his move action to get out of tactically bad spots, while the psion (no metamagic necessary!) can.

In the Big Boom category, psion wins, hands down. Hence the title of this thread.

 

[Sorren]

These are rhetorical questions, right?

Not at all. You had a bad experience?

Lemme put it another way: I notice psions appear in smack-down threads an awful lot. Not too many sorcerers make that cut......

A lot of fighters and barbarians do. They broken too?
You also don't see many wizard smackdown threads. I wouldn't call them weak.

[BTW: what lvl is your psion? Point buy or rolled? Others in your groupare what classes? ....just curious.....

5th lvl Elan Kineticist
Rolled (18 Int)
Group: Human Cleric, Halfling Sorcerer/Rogue, Half-Orc Monk, Elven Ranger

 

[Sorren]

And if the creature is resistant to fire, the sorcerer is in even bigger trouble, empowered or no.

Feats can fix that, but we won't go there.

Moreover, the sorcerer (using metamagic) can't use his move action to get out of tactically bad spots, while the psion (no metamagic necessary!) can.

In the Big Boom category, psion wins, hands down. Hence the title of this thread.

I agree. 100%
The psion is the master of the big boom.... for 10 rounds, roughly 2 encounters. If the psion wants to last more than 10 rounds, he'll have to lighten up, do less damage, and put himself on the same level as the sorcerer.

And even then, he'll be lucky to make it 16 rounds total. The sorcerer will be going strong long after.

 

[Mouseferatu]

To answer the question asked above...

Yes, this thread was inspired by actual game play, not pure hypothetical exercise.

Now, to be fair, the game in question didn't involve a kineticist and a sorcerer. It involved a kineticist and a wizard, who I think we'll all agree with run out of spells faster.

But the fact that the psion was doing remarkably more damage in a given round is what sparked the discussion in the first place.

I agree with the conclusion that, over the course of time, the classes come pretty close to evening out. Only problem is, no group I've ever played with regularly had more than two or three fights between rest periods. And most games I played in had creatures immuen or resistant to specific energy types, which makes the psion's ability to change energy forms on the fly a potent ability that I don't feel has been adequately account for in this discussion.

Again, part of it is just playing style, and I'll admit that when viewed from the "back to the dungeon" scenario, the discrepency is less than I thought it was initially. I think it still exists, though.

 

[Sorren]

I think style has a lot to do with it.
If you are in a dungeon where you can enter a room, kill the monsters, sleep and do it again tomorrow, the psion will really shine.

I was put in a situation recently though where we couldn't rest, more enemies could come by at any time. I was really hurting and had to spend a lot of time sitting on the sidelines to conserve power for when it was really needed. (Or boredom got to me. )

But yea, if you have a sorcerer and a psion in the same group, and you are playing in a game where there is a rest break after every fight, it's going to suck for the sorcerer if he is focused on damage dealing spells.

 

[Thanee]

I guess the question is (which I'm not clear on, really): how MUCH damage can a Psion really do in 3 rounds?

Off the top of my head... At 10th level using a random Energy spell at full augmentation (10d6+10 or 45 on average) plus another two quickened (Schism and Quicken) ones at 6 levels less (4d6+4 or 18 on average x2).

That makes a possible 243 points in three rounds at 10th level (with one spell being manifested in preparation).

Or, without preparation, 180 if you manifest Schism on the first round. At 13th level with quickened Schism it increases some more (beyond the additional dice for higher level), that would be 301.5 damage. At 20th level we look at 522 damage that way.

Going for lower PP expenditure, a single empowered Energy Ball per round would (at 10th level) deal 162 damage. At this level using Quicken doesn't really pay off yet, but later it does. At 20th level this would only do 364.5 damage as compared to the 522 up there.


The 10th level sorcerer can do 156 with three empowered Fireballs, but using less resources total, tho more high level resources. At 13th level the sorcerer will still do 156 with three empowered fireballs. At 20th level using empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs, the sorcerer would do 315 damage.

Bye
Thanee

 

[green slime]

I dunno about this idea of 3 short 3-4 rounds of battle scenarios per day. I have IMC consistently had battles last longer than 10 rounds, some have even stretched up well beyond 30 rounds.

I guess I just manage to set up scenarios where mooks (and masters) keep rushing in, and the set piece battle turns into a running slog match across the scenery. I have 11th level characters resorting to Cure Minor Wounds just to keep companions from passing on, because they have no more spells in their repetoire left. I am absolutely certain that a Maxed-booming Psion would sit there with their xbow and quiver behind a barrel of flour before too long...

At the levels we are discussing, a wizard at least, is far more likely to have alternative solutions to the problem at hand than just [fire] spells.

In a campaign where the players are uncertain as to where the focal point of the battle is (or will be), it is prudent for the artillerists to hold their big guns until they are certain that it is needed.

 

[green slime]

Off the top of my head... At 10th level using a random Energy spell at full augmentation (10d6+10 or 45 on average) plus another two quickened (Schism and Quicken) ones at 6 levels less (4d6+4 or 18 on average x2).

That makes a possible 243 points in three rounds at 10th level (with one spell being manifested in preparation).

Or, without preparation, 180 if you manifest Schism on the first round. At 13th level with quickened Schism it increases some more (beyond the additional dice for higher level), that would be 301.5 damage. At 20th level we look at 522 damage that way.

Going for lower PP expenditure, a single empowered Energy Ball per round would (at 10th level) deal 162 damage. At this level using Quicken doesn't really pay off yet, but later it does. At 20th level this would only do 364.5 damage as compared to the 522 up there.


The 10th level sorcerer can do 156 with three empowered Fireballs, but using less resources total, tho more high level resources. At 13th level the sorcerer will still do 156 with three empowered fireballs. At 20th level using empowered Delayed Blast Fireballs, the sorcerer would do 315 damage.

Bye
Thanee

And how many people here think that the inclusion of Schism in the XPH is a good thing? Given the nerf Haste received?

Personally, I allow schism because I also allow 3.0's haste IMC. The best use we see is hasting a fighter for constant, reliable damage output and battlefield maneuverability. Second is on a cleric, so they can get around and heal quickly, and lay a little extra flame strike or dispel magic.

 

[Thanee]

And how many people here think that the inclusion of Schism in the XPH is a good thing? Given the nerf Haste received?

Everyone except me?

Last time I said Schism was not a good idea, that was about it, since it is sooo bad with 6 manifester levels below your maximum. *shrug*

Bye
Thanee

 

[Sorren]

Round 1: Schism (7 pps) + Gain Focus

Round 2: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
+ Schism (4th level psion) Energy Missile (3+1=4pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 = 21 points of Fire Damage
+ Quickened Energy Missile (3+1=4pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 = 21 points of Fire Damage
+ Gain Focus

Round 3: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
+ Schism (4th level psion) Energy Missile (3+1=4pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 = 21 points of Fire Damage
+ Quickened Energy Missile (3+1=4pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 = 21 points of Fire Damage
+ Gain Focus

Round 4: Energy Ball (7+3=10pps); 7d6+7+3d6+3 = 45 points of Fire Damage
+ Schism (4th level psion) Energy Missile (3+1=4pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 = 21 points of Fire Damage
+ Quickened Energy Missile (3+1=4pps); 3d6+3+1d6+1 = 21 points of Fire Damage
+ Gain Focus


Total Damage: 174 Points over 3 rounds, 261 over 4 rounds
Total Cost: 43 power points over 3 rounds, 61 power points over 4 rounds

That’s 87 points of damage and 18 power points for every round after.
A 10th level psion could do it 5 times max.

In three rounds, it burns up almost half your power points, but it can be done. It assumes you will be able to retain our focus each round, which isn’t guaranteed and it requires three feats for the kineticist (Expanded Knowledge: Schism, Quicken Power, Psionic Meditation).

That’s a lot of feats and a lot of power points just to be able to pull it off, and it still isn’t guaranteed that you’ll even make your check to Focus.

Though I would discourage it, I’d allow it simply because of the cost of trying to do it.

However, if you think it’s too powerful, just rule that the action taken by the secondary mind created by schism is a free action. You can’t do a free action and manifest a quickened power.

I personally don't have a problem with schism. It's costs are high and the results are weak. It's really only effective for maintaining concentration on two powers at once or for uber combos like the one above, which I personally wouldn't use.