Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Psion]

Well, I havn't actually seen many arguments yet. The example, which I refered to as "silly" is one thing, but that is mostly since you have repeatedly ignored the argument I made as to why I think this example has no meaning for the comparison.

The only rebuttal you offered is that it is "irrelevant" and that the sorcerer "won't be able to use them all." The former was unqualified, so there is no rebuttal to offer there other than pointing such out.

That the sorcerer would not be able to use all -- or a significant portion of -- their damge dealing capability is an assessment that does not match my experience in reality. And I stated that as well, rather early on. Just how is this "ignoring the argument you made"?

And I can say it again, you cannot give the sorcerer free scaling in a comparison and then compare to the psion, who has been removed of all the free stuff they get.

I have done no such thing. Free damage scaling is an arcane casters boon. Psions have their own boons. At no point have I failed to recognize that one or the other has strengths.

 

[Scion]

I would like to point out that with a sufficient spellcraft the wizard can horde any number of spell books taken off of victims, bought from various places, stolen, borrowed from a buddy, whatever and be able to memorize any spell out of them.

If the dm uses enemy wizards now and then, and somehow the wizard in the party is able to 'aquire' their spellbook(s) then any spells that they did not already know are suddenly at their disposal, effectively for free.

This could mean that having multiple hundreds of different spells at ones disposal is not completely out of the question. Depending on the campaign it might even be likely.

Some of these may even be new spells that the casters dreamed up (dm made up) whereas the psion has a much harder time getting new powers (they have to research it themselves or maybe get some info from a buddy, but still have to use one of their precious slots).

 

[Thanee]

The only rebuttal you offered is that it is "irrelevant" and that the sorcerer "won't be able to use them all." The former was unqualified, so there is no rebuttal to offer there other than pointing such out.

Oh, I'm quite sure I have written more than that on this topic.

I have stated, that the absolute number of castings is not relevant, but rather the effect generated by them and the time by which this effect can be generated. The effect of the psions fully augmented manifestations is with no doubt higher than the effect of an equal number of fully scaled sorcerer castings (taken from top level going down). That should be obvious.

I have then stated, that what the sorcerer has left over (the psion has nothing left at this point) is roughly equal in effect to what the psion already has done on top of the sorcerer. So their total effect might be similar, but because the psion can unleash it faster, this is an advantage to the psion.

And this only takes fully augmented powers into consideration, something the psion is not forced to do, they can also distribute their power in a much wider way, going for a huge amount of low level manifestations or a fairly good amount of moderate level manifestations. Still, if they go for the highest possible augmentation level, which - again - is the worst case in terms of casting endurance, they do not come out that much behind the sorcerer.

And this is why I think the cost for augmentation, while it is a fine balance for the flexibility and the lack of caps is not enough to also balance the plethora of additional advantages psions enjoy (skills, feats, much more "spells" known, faster power level access, lack of components, "free" metamagic, etc /or/ spontaneous manifestation instead of most (not all) of the aforementioned advantages).

There are still other factors to consider, which I also mentioned, like the weaker base to pick powers from or the weaker party buffs, also compared to the wizard they can only get close to the number of spells known, and if the wizard is willing to spend large amounts of money, then the wizard will be able to have like twice the number of spells known (versus effective spells known, which is more than powers known), probably. But then again, the additional spells the wizard knows, will most likely only come into play in rare occasions, which should be obvious, unless a wizard deliberately picks rarely useful spells over commonly useful ones. And do not forget here, that the spellcasting/manifestation comparison was done against the sorcerer, not the wizard, the wizard is even weaker here with less spells per day than a sorcerer.

Most of the above factors have not been addressed in your example, so how can it be relevant?

I have done no such thing. Free damage scaling is an arcane casters boon. Psions have their own boons. At no point have I failed to recognize that one or the other has strengths.

Okay. Then how does it figure in your comparison (how the scaling figures in is kinda obvious, but how did you figure in the psion's boons by multiplying their PP by 1 to get to the number of damage dice per day)?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

If the dm uses enemy wizards now and then, and somehow the wizard in the party is able to 'aquire' their spellbook(s) then any spells that they did not already know are suddenly at their disposal, effectively for free.

Nothing is for free. It is part of the treasure and as such part of the resources. So it is basically not unlike the wizard's ability to learn new spells, which he has anyways.

Yes, it is a point to consider, but I guess it can be subsumed into the wizard's ability to learn new spells, really.

And I always consider wizards with the Boccob's blessed book, anyways, therefore the scribing cost is not a factor (or a fixed one 12,500gp), but rather the cost to get those spells, which is more than enough, as I know very well from personal experience.

This could mean that having multiple hundreds of different spells at ones disposal is not completely out of the question.

Multiple hundreds!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

How much is an old spellbook worth in gp? Not much really. So if it is part of the treasure then it is an incredibly small amount of gold used towards the wizards amount.

going through 36k would probably be a huge pile of spellbooks. Good enoug then, the psion you posted had the torc, this wizard has a few hundred spells. Lets see who wins in versitility.

 

[Henry]

I have seen the argument that a psion gets a limited power selection, and this reduces his power compared to a wizard. However, the ability to manifest an unknown power from someone else's powers, or even power stones, on the fly for no resource cost really concerns me. (See below for SRD text.)

When's the last time you saw two Sorcerers echanging spell repertoires on the fly? When's the last time you saw a Sorcerer or Wizard use a spell scroll - and KEEP the spell? When's the last time you saw a Wizard or Sorcerer knock an enemy sorcerer unconscious - and then use his powers against the enemy?!?!

What it means is that psions are not nearly as limited in repertoire as some would paint them. All they need to do is to concentrate on their powers that need immediate use, and build up their psicraft score, and they can use whatever they need at leisure! This certainly factors into the discussion on the relative power and versatility between the two.

Manifest an Unknown Power from Another’s Powers Known

A psionic character can attempt to manifest a power from a source other than his own knowledge (usually a power stone or another willing psionic character). To do so, the character must first make contact (a process similar to addressing a power stone, requiring a Psicraft check against a DC of 15+ the level of the power to be manifested). A psionic character can make contact with only a willing psionic character or creature (unconscious creatures are considered willing, but not psionic characters under the effects of other immobilizing conditions). Characters who can’t use power stones for any reason are also banned from attempting to manifest powers from the knowledge of other psionic characters. Mental contact requires 1 full round of physical contact, which can provoke attacks of opportunity. Once contact is achieved, the character becomes aware of all the powers stored in the power stone or all the powers the other character knows up to the highest level of power the contactor knows himself.
Next, the psionic character must choose one of the powers and make a second Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level) to see if he understands it. If the power is not on his class list, he automatically fails this check.
Upon successfully making contact with another willing psionic character or creature and learning what he can of one power in particular, the character can immediately attempt to manifest that power even if he doesn’t know it (and assuming he has power points left for the day). He can attempt to manifest the power normally on his next turn, and he succeeds if he makes one additional Psicraft check (DC 15 + the power’s level). He retains the ability to manifest the selected power for only 1 round. If he doesn’t manifest the power, fails the Psicraft check, or manifests a different power, he loses his chance to manifest that power for the day.

 

[Nail]

The spellbook issue is highly dependant on the campaign world (i.e. the DM).

IME (player and DM), wizard spells are not incredibly easy to come up with, and many enemy spellbooks have the same old spells the party wizard has. I can imagine, however, a DM which freely gives away lots of cool spells to the wizard. I've never played in such a game, but I'm sure it's possible.

The scribing costs, OTOH, are not marginal --> and I think you *MUST* include "down time spent" as one of the costs. Those days the wizard is spending are....not generally appreciated by the rest of the party. Take that as you will.

Just hanging on to a few enemy spell books ain't gonna cut it for the Wiz, especially at lower levels.

 

[Someone]

I have seen the argument that a psion gets a limited power selection, and this reduces his power compared to a wizard. However, the ability to manifest an unknown power from someone else's powers, or even power stones, on the fly for no resource cost really concerns me.

And me. I don´t know what they were thinking on when they wrote that rule.

 

[BryonD]

Simple comment:

Psion's analysis is correct.

(I don't use the rule that Henry mentioned)

 

[Spatula]

This is the problem though. Like the warmage, the Psychokinteic emphasising Psion has limited capacity to do anyhing else. They can't teleport the party. They can't fly.

Greater teleport and overland flight are general powers. Teleport and psionic fly are available via Expanded Knowledge if the psion really wants them.

Yes, Augmentation is very nice. Not all damage dealing powers boost the DC when you aug though. And the psion loses out majorly to the Wizard in one other respect: Metamagic/Psionics.

This is very true.

Armour wearing capability, and silent still spells automatically? Armour still costs a feat

If you want to be munchkiny about it, a psion can wear full plate with no armor feats whatsoever. He won't be able to succeed at any attack rolls, but so what? That's the only penalty to not having the feats.

Even if you don't want to be a munchkin, a psion can wear leather armor, masterwork studded leather, or a mithril chain shirt at no penalty with no armor feats.

and lack of VSM on the description is a false positive. People still know when you're slinging mojo around from the displays.

The real benefit of silent, still, eschew materials is that you can't be stopped by being gagged, stripped, and having your hands tied. You don't need to worry about having material/focus components in-hand when grappled. You can be completely naked and still operate at full effectiveness. The displays prevent "stealth casting" in theory but they can be done away with fairly easily with a Concentration check.

The lack of material/focus components does have one downside, which is that the psionic version of spells with expensive components usually carry a XP cost.