Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Taren Seeker]

Nah not broken. 36k feels right. Remember that when you are an augmenter you are more likely to do fewer large manifestations rather than many small ones which limits the savings further. It essentially acts as the +1 caster level Ioun stone form the DMG, better than some ways and worse in others.

 

[Thanee]

Sure. But Thannee awarded himself a 36,000 GP item in his inherent analysis of characters able to make a torc. Characters on both sides of the balance sheet have access to their wealth.

That's no real problem, I just put it in, since I assume it a reasonable piece of equipment at that level. Since I used only fully augmented powers it doesn't even factor in that bad. Just remove it from the calculations, doesn't make such a big difference. The comparison doesn't really tap the vast power of the torque (altho at 36k it's at least somewhat ok, not really appropriately costed IMHO, but not as bad as to get a headache over it).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Shadowdweller]

I like psions and psionics. I feel that, for the most part, the XPH is very well balanced with core material. The only reason this is a major issue for me is because of A) play style, as described above, and B) because it doesn't sit right with me that there's a class capable of out-performing the arcane casters when it comes to offensive mystical abilities.

Just be careful not to confuse direct damage spells/powers with overall offensive capability.

I repeat my earlier statement: Despite augmentation possibilities and energy type choices, spells are by and large more far-reaching and versatile than psionics. Of course, since this is qualitative, it requires comparison and anecdote rather than numbers.

 

[Psion]

Wow, people feel strongly about this. Didn't mean to start a screaming match here. :\

I'm realizing what part of my problem is, and that's playing style. This is one case where the "back to the dungeon" balance of 3E doesn't work for me.

Hey, that's cool. I have said in other threads that balance analyzed without benefit of looking at your playstyle is pretty much meaningless. In fact, I consider many decisions made by the design team rather pointless to my game, for they assume a player rather more minmaxy than any of my players.

I really don't expect to convince Thanee. I do, however, worry about him "posioning the well", as it were, and have resolved not to let him have an unanswered point, and minimize the chance that some DM who doesn't have the benefit of all the facts take his points seriously and use it as a reason to prevent his poor players from using a rules set that is, in fact, not all that Thanee cracks it up to be.

I would also point out that I am also not sold on the "back to the dungeon" as a guiding philosophy (thus my loathing of "pokemounts"), but I still have some hairy fights. That said, my stronger emphasis on problem-solving scenarios makes the wizard even more appealing.

 

[Thanee]

s I said last time, I am not comparing damage only. But pure damage output, and taking into account caps, is a figure that DOES bear on the situation.

You are comparing a sorcerer with fully scaled up damage against a psion removed of every advantage they have (most importantly the flexibility (both in their known powers and their free application of PP), really).


A 10th level fighter can do two swings per round (one damage die each), a day has a lot of rounds...

Still a sorcerer beats the fighter in raw damage output, since they can unleash a higher potiential in a shorter amount of time (and for this reason only).

The psion is the next step up. They can unleash even more potential in a short amount of time.

But they do not have to, just like the sorcerer can use lower level spells (which you said yourself are best used for spells which do not scale (and thus cap out), like Fly), they can achieve things with manifestations, which are not at their maximum. Their are plenty powers, which do not even need to be (or can be) augmented and still have their full effect. Did I consider these? Nope, and they will only further increase the discrepancy between the classes. By doing this a psion has a very good endurance, too.

And you do not perceive that you are the one not comparing on a fair level by dismissing the facts on how much damage a sorcerer can do owing to the fact that a sorcerer gets free damage scaling?

Yes, indeed. I do not consider it fair to include all advantages of scaling and to remove all the advantages of augmentation. This is exactly what your example did. It's pointless and meaningless.

A quick search will reveal that at higher levels (MT 8-10 or so), yes , this factor makes MTs modestly overpowered, when coupled with their unprecedented flexibility and synergy between spell lists.

At epic levels?

And the point where the Mystic Theurge actually becomes very good is the point where they reach 9th level spells, since then they have something in addition to what other casters have available. That is for one reason mainly, because there are no 10th level spells. Prior to that they suffer from their lack in potency throughout their whole carreer (tho they are still useful characters, just not in the power department). But this is something unique for the Mystic Theurge, it doesn't apply here.

15th level sorcerers (to pick one of the examples, the general idea is true for all, tho) do not gain 6th level spells in addition to psions, they do not even gain 5th level, what they have is an amount of 1st through 4th level spells (most of which are already far beyond their cap), which they have after trading their 5th-7th level spells one for one against fully augmented 8th level powers each. And each of those 5th-7th level spells had a weaker effect in the first place.

And this is not even damage dice only, it's just looking at the level of the spells/powers for a general effect (full scaling versus full augmentation), which certainly is very compareable.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I repeat my earlier statement: Despite augmentation possibilities and energy type choices, spells are by and large more far-reaching and versatile than psionics. Of course, since this is qualitative, it requires comparison and anecdote rather than numbers.

BTW, this is something I actually think is a proper argument (unlike Psion's silly (sorry ) damage dice example), which - just to mention this again - I also bring up myself in comparison (the better base spellcasters have with the spells they pick from, and their much better party buffs), at least twice or thrice in this thread already.

It's also true, that this is very hard to evaluate, especially since the power list is certainly not finite and will be expanded over time.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Allanon]

You are comparing a sorcerer with fully scaled up damage against a psion removed of every advantage they have (most importantly the flexibility (both in their known powers and their free application of PP), really).


A 10th level fighter can do two swings per round (one damage die each), a day has a lot of rounds...

Still a sorcerer beats the fighter in raw damage output, since they can unleash a higher potiential in a shorter amount of time (and for this reason only).

The psion is the next step up. They can unleash even more potential in a short amount of time.

But they do not have to, just like the sorcerer can use lower level spells (which you said yourself are best used for spells which do not scale (and thus cap out), like Fly), they can achieve things with manifestations, which are not at their maximum. Their are plenty powers, which do not even need to be (or can be) augmented and still have their full effect. Did I consider these? Nope, and they will only further increase the discrepancy between the classes. By doing this a psion has a very good endurance, too.


Yes, indeed. I do not consider it fair to include all advantages of scaling and to remove all the advantages of augmentation. This is exactly what your example did. It's pointless and meaningless.


At epic levels?

And the point where the Mystic Theurge actually becomes very good is the point where they reach 9th level spells, since then they have something in addition to what other casters have available. That is for one reason mainly, because there are no 10th level spells. Prior to that they suffer from their lack in potency throughout their whole carreer (tho they are still useful characters, just not in the power department). But this is something unique for the Mystic Theurge, it doesn't apply here.

15th level sorcerers (to pick one of the examples, the general idea is true for all, tho) do not gain 6th level spells in addition to psions, they do not even gain 5th level or 4th level spells, what they have is an amount of 1st through 3rd level spells (all of which are already far beyond their cap), which they have after trading their 4th-7th level spells one for one against fully augmented 8th level powers each. And each of those 4th-7th level spells had a weaker effect in the first place.

And this is not even damage dice only, it's just looking at the level of the spells/powers for a general effect (full scaling versus full augmentation), which certainly is very compareable.

Bye
Thanee

“Look this isn't an argument, it's just contradiction. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a definite proposition... it's an intellectual process... contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.” - Thanee's Sig.

 

[Thanee]

I do, however, worry about him "poisoning the well", as it were, and have resolved not to let him have an unanswered point, and minimize the chance that some DM who doesn't have the benefit of all the facts take his points seriously and use it as a reason to prevent his poor players from using a rules set that is, in fact, not all that Thanee cracks it up to be.

Wow! Your opinion of the readers here on EN World is rather low, huh?

What a slap in the face for all the poor people, who you declare are not mature enough to make up their own opinion, so they need you to make up an opinion for them.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

“Look this isn't an argument, it's just contradiction. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a definite proposition... it's an intellectual process... contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.” - Thanee's Sig.

Yeah, and I know at least one person, that has not understood the meaning...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Allanon]

Yeah, and I know at least one person, that has not understood the meaning...

Bye
Thanee

I hope so, but do you know yourself well enough to actually do something with that information