Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Staffan]

Compared to what? The psion's powers?

My guess: compared to the hit points of the stuff you'll be fighting. The 5th level mage unloading his top "boom" spell (fireball or lightning bolt) will do ~18 points of damage to something which has 30-70 hp (from looking at some of the CR 5 things in the MM). The 11th level mage unloading his top damage spell (chain lightning) will do ~39 points to something with hp in the 150-200 range, or with hp in the 100-150 range with tons of resistances/immunities. At higher levels, it becomes much more useful for the mage to focus on save-or-do-bad-stuff spells, because monster hp increase a lot faster than blast spell damage.

 

[Thanee]

Dunno, I found those Horrid Wiltings pretty scary, when I was on the receiving end of them as a player.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

Not to mention "bad stuff" in some of those spells has now been redefined to mean "lotsa damage". (e.g., disintigrate)

 

[nimisgod]

My guess: compared to the hit points of the stuff you'll be fighting. The 5th level mage unloading his top "boom" spell (fireball or lightning bolt) will do ~18 points of damage to something which has 30-70 hp (from looking at some of the CR 5 things in the MM). The 11th level mage unloading his top damage spell (chain lightning) will do ~39 points to something with hp in the 150-200 range, or with hp in the 100-150 range with tons of resistances/immunities. At higher levels, it becomes much more useful for the mage to focus on save-or-do-bad-stuff spells, because monster hp increase a lot faster than blast spell damage.

My group has found that the design philosophy for the core spells you deem weak is that these area effect spells that wizards and sorcerers can cast are meant to deal with/weaken multiple opponents, not obliterate them. IMX, it is the melee fighter type's job to deal ridiculous amounts of damage to single brute monsters. This philosophy seems to change with the advent of power spells like Firebrand, though.

I mean if the wiz/sor can just obliterate his opponents instantly with an area effect spell what are the other party members supposed to do?

 

[Plane Sailing]

It was a huge yet inobvious change from the philosophy of earlier versions of D&D though. In previous versions (when a tough monster might have 8d8+8 HD, ooooh) a 10d6 fireball was still a threat worth worrying about.

In 3e it is paltry.

The 3.5e version of disintegrate sounds OK until you work out how much damage you are *actually* likely to do with it compared to the hp of the challenges you are likely to be facing. It went from "save or die" to "save or hurt a bit, but at least it wasn't the barbarian getting in a full round 2H power attack".

An interesting potential houserule to try out might be to remove damage caps on spells - allowing fireballs to scale all the way up to 20d6 etc. Of course, the first obvious downside might be metamagic gets much beefier - but I'm more likely to hear complaints about metamagic being too weak rather than too powerful as it is. Might be worth starting a house rules thread on this idea...

Cheers

 

[Staffan]

My group has found that the design philosophy for the core spells you deem weak is that these area effect spells that wizards and sorcerers can cast are meant to deal with/weaken multiple opponents, not obliterate them

There are some single-target high-level evocations that still only deal the paltry 1d6/level. Well, one at least - polar ray.

Also, the guidelines for new spells show that single-target spells shouldn't do more damage per se, just have a higher cap (e.g. a 4th level spell that did 1d6/level to a single target would max out at 15d6, but it takes a 5th level spell to do 15d6 to an area).

It was a huge yet inobvious change from the philosophy of earlier versions of D&D though. In previous versions (when a tough monster might have 8d8+8 HD, ooooh) a 10d6 fireball was still a threat worth worrying about.

In 3e it is paltry.

Exactly. Monsters got tons and tons more hit points in 3e, and both monsters and fighters do more damage (due to Strength and Power attack), but wizards still never really get any offensive spells that are better than fireball.

 

[nimisgod]

There are some single-target high-level evocations that still only deal the paltry 1d6/level. Well, one at least - polar ray.

For no saving throw. It needs a ranged touch attack, but at these levels most monsters will have a paltry touch AC.

Exactly. Monsters got tons and tons more hit points in 3e, and both monsters and fighters do more damage (due to Strength and Power attack), but wizards still never really get any offensive spells that are better than fireball.

Your sweeping statement aside, aren't fighters and monsters meant to deal out large amounts of melee damage? I mean, what else is the fighter good for? He certainly can't teleport the party or analyze dweomers. What else is the dire tiger going to do? A CR 5 encounter is meant to be a challenge for a balanced party of four.

In conclusion, I think the core sor/wiz blaster spells are fine. They are "balanced". It's the psionic blaster powers that are not "balanced".

 

[Scion]

of course I feel that the sorc/wiz damage dealing spells need some help whereas the psionic versions might actually be useful after a few levels.

Still, I am guessing you meant dire lion instead of dire tiger, and a dire lion is likely to kill at least one party member of the average 5th level party

first round: Charge, pounce, claw, claw, rake, rake, bite. If bite hits attempt grapple, if grapple then rake, rake.

whoever that was is either hurting majorly or dead

Not really here or there, it is late and the lion is a very odd CR.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

WRT the Dire Lion's CR, creatures actually need to begin the round grappling in order to use their rake ability. Thus it's charge pounce, claw, claw, rake, rake, bite, possibly grapple. Round 2: rake, rake, possibly grapple.

As to the Psionic blast powers, you'll note that none or them really go much beyond 1d6/level themselves. What they have over magical blast powers is:
1. The ability to customize the energy type to avoid energy resistance or take advantage of energy vulnerability. (IIRC, only Anarchic creatures have resistance to all energy types).
2. Some of them (energy stun, energy missile) have DCs that scale MUCH faster than magic DCs can possibly scale. (As written a maximally augmented energy stun for a 20th level manifester is DC 29+int+any other bonusses. A meteor Swarm is DC 19+int+any other bonusses; this can go even higher through the use of overchannel, wild surge, manifester level boosts, etc).
3. The ability to use them at maximum damage/round efficiency until you run out of power points
4. The ability to be manifested under any adverse conditions--grappled, pinned, etc.

Meteor Swarm, Scorching Ray, Disintegrate, and Empowered spells actually break the 1d6/level cap on magic blasting. However, they all have much more limited saving throws and (with the exception of disintegrate which is untyped) a fixed energy descriptor.

 

[Scion]

SRD:
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a dire lion must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.


Can be read two ways I suppose.

1. When it establishes a hold it can rake right now.
2. When it establishes a hold it can rake sometime later.

Looks like number one to me though. If it wins the grapple then it establishes a hold and can rake.