Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Nail]

As I went through above, the grapple rules are fairly unimpressive.

How many times has a monster tried to grapple a PC in your game?

Also, many creatures will be doing 'less' damage to a grappled foe than otherwise...

Irrelevant. Grappling is not primarily for causing damage. It's for making someone completely useless for some portion of combat. That is a big deal!

.....However, mainly only for one on one battles (which a ring of free action makes the wearer simply immune to).

<Reaganism>There you go again!</Reaganism>

A ring of Free Action costs 40,000 gp.

A 10th level PC has a total wealth of 49,000gp. Only at 15th level + does that cost become "simple".

Of course, we know that the wizard has to think about it slightly more, ....

...and there's that word "slightly" again........

Psion slighter better off? sure. Much better off? nah. <Grappling> isnt an incredible combat tactic to begin with the majority of the time and with a little planning it can be gotten around completely.

Planning is the point.

Sor/wiz: must spend resources to plan.

Psion: doesn't have to

Advantage: Psion

That's really all there is too it.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

While it is not mentioned it seems it would be just as easy to cover someones eyes as it would be to cover their mouth (assuming the proper conditions).

Of course, it doesn't matter much if the psion has manifested Synthsete and can see through his ears just as well as he can see through his eyes.

So apparently we have a mage who is in his base form, has no defensive items which are useable,

Well, considering that polymorph is 1 min/level now, you should write:
"a mage who is not expecting immediate combat and has neither the skin of the Proteus nor a ring of free action." Of course, that would sound much less convincing.

the opponent has at least one feat/special ability to negate the aoo,

Or takes thought to draw the AoO early through movement, has a high enough AC to evade the wizard's dagger or staff (not too hard really), or simply has multiple attacks and the ability to make a full attack.

It's also relevant vs. a variety of common spells like Evard's Black Tentacles, Bigby's Grasping Hand, Bigby's Crushing Hand, etc. Against sorcerors or wizards, those spells often end encounters.

the mage fails at a couple different grapple checks,

Only one grapple check. And that's pretty much a given unless the wizard has already polymorphed into an annis hag or something similar--in which case, he is still likely to lose (base grapple +14) to a slightly buffed grappler on the other side (7th level enlarged monk with an 18 strength (probably through gauntlets of ogre power) and Improved Grapple +18). (I say slightly buffed because a multiclassed grappler would be better as would said monk if he were also bull's strengthed, a half-orc, blessed, prayered, using Suregrip (T&B), or had weapon focus: grapple).

has no allies,

Again, the only relevant ally here is a melee rogue. Archers are no help, spellcasters are less of a help than they would be otherwise, and warrior types are only slightly more helpful than they would be otherwise. And even then, the melee rogue is only relevant if the target is vulnerable to crits.

and has spent no thought on the matter then he is in a worse position than a psion who is in the same boat. All right.

Even if he has spent significant thought and resources on the matter, he's still in a worse position than the psion in that situation.

I am still failing to see the awe inspiring power boost that this entails.

Awe-inspiring, maybe not. But if you don't think it's a significant advantage, you're not paying attention.

Seems incredibly slight actually. Sortof like the difference between someone with a bow that shoots 100' vs the guy who has a bow that shoots 110'. Sure, the guy with the second bow can shoot farther whenever the need is there, but most of the time the need simply isnt there.

Now we have a second contestant in the most ludicrous comparison contest. The ability to manifest powers mostly unhindered in a grapple is FAR more significant than being able to shoot an extra 10 feet. It's something that is likely to come up in 10-20% of combats for a PC (making it more comparable to a fighter who doesn't carry a ranged weapon at all than a fighter who has a 100' range bow rather than 110') and is likely to come up in 30% of combats for a spellcasting NPC--going up to 50% of combats if a PC starts using Evard's Black Tentacles and 90% of combats once PCs hit 13th level and start using Grasping Hand. Of course, that will depend upon the party makeup but it's something that regularly devastates unprepared NPC spellcasters.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

This is my experience as well. It's why I am of the opinion that Close Quarters Fighting is a mandatory feat for nearly every fighter type. If you don't have a method for dealing with being grappled, you're going to find yourself sucking your thumb in combat on a regular basis--unless you're a psion, in which case, you just have to make a concentration check and you're good to go.

It's an extremely effective tactic....even against the all-powerful fighter!

In one of our recent games (where I DM) a wyvern attacked the party. He won init, and attacked the first guy in the marching order: the Fighter. The wyvern hit, Improved Grappled, and took the fighter down. The cleric ran up...and next round, the wyvern took a -20 on the grapple, then did a full attack on the cleric. Ouch! Two rounds later, the wyvern fled (those nasty archers!), leaving the poor fighter behind...who, by this time, had managed to break the grapple and free himself.

The point is: grapple is one of those "great equalizers" in the game. In my example above, the fighter went from "I do the most damage per round!" to "I'm useless until I escape this grapple!".

The psion, OTOH, could have continued to contribute during the combat.....in fact, he might of been able to simply kill the silly wyvern.

OT: Boy, does that fighter PC hate grapples. It happens almost every game. (7th level PCs)

 

[Thanee]

I still wonder if that power is a little on the strong side. It's most comparable to chain lightning, which is one level higher.

I think it compares well to Ball Lightning (from Magic of Faerûn) in the first incarnation. They nerfed it in Savage Species to 1d6 per 2 levels and now again in the Player's Guide to Faerûn to some rather weird version.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Scion]

It's an extremely effective tactic....even against the all-powerful fighter!

In one of our recent games (where I DM) a wyvern attacked the party. He won init, and attacked the first guy in the marching order: the Fighter. The wyvern hit, Improved Grappled, and took the fighter down. The cleric ran up...and next round, the wyvern took a -20 on the grapple, then did a full attack on the cleric. Ouch! Two rounds later, the wyvern fled (those nasty archers!), leaving the poor fighter behind...who, by this time, had managed to break the grapple and free himself.

So lets see. Fighter level 6 (as the wyvern is level 6 this doesnt seem incredibly unlikely).

Wyvern initiative +1, chance of beating the whole party? very slim.
Wyvern attack +7, chance to hit party tank? probably around 50/50.
Wyvern opposed grapple check +15, probably less than 65% chance of succeeding.
Now the whole party gets to go. Wyvern AC 17 while grappling. Flanking is incredibly easy to do, no threatened squares from the wyvern. Likely to lose a good chunk of his hp this round (fighter does whatever it is he wants to do while grappling, trying to escape or do some other combat manuevers, if he tries to pin the beast then he has a chance to do so, holding it immoble for one round).
Wyvern takes -20 to grapple check (one limb busy) to full attack the cleric. Now fighter is virtually gaurenteed to be able to pin the beast, rest of party slaughters it.

Sounds like the fighter, even though he wasnt as effective as he might have been, still won the day. It was actually a 'good thing' in some ways that he was grappled, as he was able to deny the creature attacks, pull its ac down for the rest of the party, and if it had bothered to attack him then cut its offensive power to nil.

So even this fighter, who was weak (assumed str 14), ill equiped (used no equipment during the grapple), and had no relevant feats (none were used at all), still was able to make a valueable contribution to the fight while in the grips of being grappled. All of that was even after the incredibly unlikely setup.


This example shows perfectly just how weak grappling tends to be.

I have seen it used in several games, most of the time the monster actually gets 'easier' to fight once it is busy grappling.

 

[Scion]

As for the spells and items that help, I do not wish to go through the incredibly long list of things that would make the caster resistant/immune, I think everyone here has access to the SRD and can do so for themselves.

However, a few easy ones would be Alter self (10 minute duration, all around good buff spell), ring of blinking, cloak of displacement, hat of disguise/disguise self, mirrior image, blur.. bah, the list goes on and on and on and on.

If it is such a huge problem (which, given the rules for grappling, it typically isnt) then anyone vulnerable will take a simple precaution or two.

Hence why it is a pretty minor bonus.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As for the spells and items that help, I do not wish to go through the incredibly long list of things that would make the caster resistant/immune, I think everyone here has access to the SRD and can do so for themselves.

Some of us already have and the list isn't nearly as long as you seem to think it is.

However, a few easy ones would be Alter self (10 minute duration, all around good buff spell), ring of blinking, cloak of displacement, hat of disguise/disguise self, mirrior image, blur.. bah, the list goes on and on and on and on.

Considering that half of these don't actually help much with grappling, you should be a little less condescending and a lot less confident in this:

Alter Self: Doesn't change stats, can't change type. Since there are no large humanoids in the core rules, it can't make a caster significantly better at grappling. Since natural armor doesn't apply to the touch attack, it doesn't help in that part either. I suppose it helps a little bit against improved grab creatures who have to hit the wizard's normal AC to start a grapple. Still, it's not very good anti-grapple material.

Hat of Disguise/Disguise Self: Doesn't help at all. The most it can do is deter attacks by making a character look like someone who is not a good target for grappling. However, since there are so many things that would break the illusion (illusionary armor doesn't make a sound and doesn't impede movement, etc), and the hat of disguise has a very low DC (11 as a magic item duplicating a 1st level spell) it's not even really good at that.

Other items that you mention only help against some grapples (Mirror Image for instance does nothing against Evard's Black Tentacles), are not generally useful for sor/wiz characters (while a favorite of rogues, a ring of blinking is not really well regarded by sor/wiz characters who can cast blink themself but usually elect not to since the 20% miss chance really hurts characters with limited offensive resources), or are generally weak items for characters not on the front line (the cloak of displacement is allright for a front-line fighter but is a bit of a waste on a wizard who benefits more from +5 to saves (cloak of resistance) than from a 20% miss chance).

The real list is something more like:
Polymorph
Skin of the Proteus (broken anyway and prohibitively expensive till level 16 or so)
Ring of Free Movement (prohibitively expensive until level 15 or so)
Ring of Blinking (expensive and not much more effective than dimension door and has serious drawbacks for a spellcaster)
Cape of the Montebank
Ring of Spell Storing (with Freedom of Movement, Divine Power, Divine Favor, or Righteous Might)
Freedom of Movement
Blink
Improved Blink (Complete Divine)
Dimension Door
Teleport
Greater Teleport
Ghostform (T&B)
Gaseous Form
Ectoplasmic form
Fire Shield (arguably--most DMs I know would apply the damage for grappling even though the spell doesn't explicitly do so)
Shapechange
Ring of Protection (a little)
Belt of Giant Strength (somewhat)
Iron Body (somewhat)
Grease
True Strike (quickened and eschewed, assuming your DM applies attack bonusses to grapple checks)
Tenser's Transformation
Enlarge Person
Righteous Might
Shield of Faith
Divine Favor
Divine Power
Wish

Most of these, however, are not practical when you're a sor/wiz or when you are being grappled yourself or don't help a lot/enough. That's why the discussion thus far has focussed on Rings of Free Action, contingent spells, Ghost Form, and Dimension Door: because those are the best and most practical ways to deal with grapple. Shapechange would help a lot too but it's 9th level and is generally obvious when it's active and once it's active, most enemies won't try and grapple you.

If it is such a huge problem (which, given the rules for grappling, it typically isnt) then anyone vulnerable will take a simple precaution or two.

Curious--most people find the 3.5 grapple rules to be quite intuitive that's probably why Nail and I see extensive use of them.

More to the point, "a simple precaution or two" does not come close to equalling the psion's ability to manifest while in a grapple. (At best, they make it slightly less likely that the caster will be grappled and most are simply side-effects of ordinary defensive activities--which the psion can be relied upon to duplicate because he has an equal interest in not being beaten to a pulp). Only the serious precautions available only at high levels like rings of free action and contingent ghostform equal the psion's ability to manifest unhindered by grapples. That's why it's a significant advantage.

 

[Scion]

Some of us already have and the list isn't nearly as long as you seem to think it is.

Sure it is, take a look I named a few that are right off of the top.

Considering that half of these don't actually help much with grappling, you should be a little less condescending and a lot less confident in this:

Please read my posts more carefully before dismissing it. Having a 50% miss chance makes one more resistant to grappling. Hence, all of those are helpful for avoiding being grappled and, paraphrased from what I said earlier, prevention is even better than doing it well.

Alter Self:

It is possible to have a large humanoid in the game. Not being included in the core rules is an unfortunate oversight just like no winged humanoids.

Still, getting some natural attacks and a higher ac definately help, especially with the improved grab comments earlier. It is also of an almost decent duration.

Hat of Disguise/Disguise Self:

If they think you will be a tough grappler and there are other better targets then you have just saved yourself from being grappled.

Sure, it can be seen through with strong enough magic, but so what? If they are useing time to see through it then that helps out the party, if they are magical enough to always have something like that running then there are still other things to be done and the caster can get other items which are better options (the hat was mentioned because it is so incredibly cheap, available very early on when the caster is most vulnerable).

More to the point, "a simple precaution or two" does not come close to equalling the psion's ability to manifest while in a grapple.

Grappling is generally an inferior combat option.

Being slightly better at doing your thing when someone else is doing something that is making themselves worse is not exactly a huge benefit.

Yes, slightly. This is because there are many ways to become resistant, many ways to become immune, and several ways to simply be able to ignore the problem.

Sorcs are in the worst boat, wizards are next, and then psions are on top. Big deal. Better in a pretty marginal case. Woo.

Still, has little to nothing to do with the topic.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

So lets see. Fighter level 6 (as the wyvern is level 6 this doesnt seem incredibly unlikely).

At that point, however, the wyvern is expected to be torn up without seriously damaging the party (20% resources). Therefore the assumption that he's supposed to prevent a serious threat to the whole party (when grappling or otherwise) is inaccurate and the comparison point has to be what he accomplishes before losing.

Wyvern initiative +1, chance of beating the whole party? very slim.

Not that it's particularly relevant. They can all hide under trees and rocks if they want but it only needs to beat one party member to have a chance of grappling him.

Wyvern attack +7, chance to hit party tank? probably around 50/50.

It's probably diving and attacking from higher ground (the air one square above the victim). My SRD also lists the wyvern's attack at +10. (+13 with bonusses) That would give it a better chance--probably more like 65-70% against a two handed weapon fighter; noticably less against a sword and board fighter. Not too impressive but it's a CR 6 creature; it's supposed to get slaughtered.

Wyvern opposed grapple check +15, probably less than 65% chance of succeeding.

Actually, it's about 74% assuming the fighter has a 16 strength and is medium--both reasonable assumptions.

Now the whole party gets to go. Wyvern AC 17 while grappling. Flanking is incredibly easy to do, no threatened squares from the wyvern.

The wyvern's 10' face makes this noticably harder--especially since the party probably doesn't begin next to the fighter. Odds are good that at least half of them have to choose between flanking and attacking. (Of course, the rogue doesn't need to flank since the wyvern is grappled).

Likely to lose a good chunk of his hp this round (fighter does whatever it is he wants to do while grappling, trying to escape or do some other combat manuevers, if he tries to pin the beast then he has a chance to do so, holding it immoble for one round).

I don't know about this. In the standard 4 person party, the wizard will probably toss a magic missile (avg dmg--10.5), the cleric closes and attacks (standard atk bonus with 14 str, weapon focus and a masterwork weapon: +8 for 1d8+2 dmg--avg dmg 3.9), and the rogue attacks (16 dex, weapon finesse, masterwork rapier +8 for 1d6+1 +3d6 SA--avg dmg: 9). That's a decent chunk of hit points (total avg 23.4) but then again, it's still less than the wyvern would have taken had the fighter had his shot (atk +11/+6 for 2d6+7 with a +1 greatsword--avg 14.7 dmg w/out power attack). Even though the rogue's average damage goes up by around six points (assuming he can only sneak attack because of the grapple) and the cleric's average damage goes up by about a quarter of a point, the wyvern is still taking less damage than it would otherwise.

The fighter stands about a 26% chance of either escaping or pinning the wyvern (and since pinning is no more difficult than winning any other grapple check and a character who pins his foe can leave the grapple as a free action, there's no reason not to go for the pin).

Wyvern takes -20 to grapple check (one limb busy) to full attack the cleric. Now fighter is virtually gaurenteed to be able to pin the beast, rest of party slaughters it.

Assuming your DM allows that particular bit of rules-twisting. I wouldn't. A creature that takes the -20 to grapple is not considered grappled and therefore can't be pinned. (Only foes who are in a grapple can be pinned).

Sounds like the fighter, even though he wasnt as effective as he might have been, still won the day. It was actually a 'good thing' in some ways that he was grappled, as he was able to deny the creature attacks, pull its ac down for the rest of the party, and if it had bothered to attack him then cut its offensive power to nil.

Of course the rest of the party is safer once the wyvern is grappling the fighter. The fighter isn't though. And, once the wyvern takes the -20 to the grapple check, the rest of the party is actually worse off since the wyvern is not really hindered but the fighter won't be contributing to the fight until the round after he breaks out of the grapple.

So even this fighter, who was weak (assumed str 14), ill equiped (used no equipment during the grapple), and had no relevant feats (none were used at all), still was able to make a valueable contribution to the fight while in the grips of being grappled. All of that was even after the incredibly unlikely setup.

Note that your typical 6th level fighter only has one or two pieces of equipment that could possibly be of use in a grapple. Gauntlets of Ogre power and masterwork armor spikes are about it. If the fighter full attacked with his armor spikes the round he was grappled, he'd contribute about 3.9 points of damage--5.6 points of damage with the gauntlets.

This example shows perfectly just how weak grappling tends to be.

No. Actually, it shows that it is only a marginal advantage for a single creature to grab the most protected character and best grappler in a group. Had the wyvern grabbed the rogue (and followed up with a sting as it can once it starts a grapple), the equation would have looked very different. Had another wyvern engaged the rogue or the wizard at the same time, grappling would be demonstratably devastating. (Without the rogue's sneak attack or the magic missile, the wyvern cut the amount of damage it takes per round in half, negated archery (including ranged touch attacks like ray of enfeeblement or scorching ray) and area effects like glitterdust.

This is grappling at its weakest, not at its strongest.

I have seen it used in several games, most of the time the monster actually gets 'easier' to fight once it is busy grappling.

Only for the people outside the grapple, only if it doesn't have constrict, and only if it is the only monster in the fight. Change any of those equations and grappling becomes A LOT more deadly.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Please read my posts more carefully before dismissing it. Having a 50% miss chance makes one more resistant to grappling. Hence, all of those are helpful for avoiding being grappled and, paraphrased from what I said earlier, prevention is even better than doing it well.

Sure. I only said that about half of the options you listed didn't help. Stuff like displacement does help although the duration is low enough that it will very rarely be cast before combat begins.

It is possible to have a large humanoid in the game. Not being included in the core rules is an unfortunate oversight just like no winged humanoids.

Actually, I think it's intentional. Everything that would otherwise be a large humanoid is a giant. Things that would otherwise be winged humanoids (like avariel) are monstrous humanoids. That's what those categories are for.

Still, getting some natural attacks and a higher ac definately help, especially with the improved grab comments earlier. It is also of an almost decent duration.

They help with improved grab creatures. Natural attacks aren't really very helpful to a wizard. Even if he were allowed to use all of his natural attacks inside the grapple (which he's not), a 14 strength (unusually high) wizard 6 would still only do an average of 3 points of damage to the wyvern in the previous example. The natural armor helps a little bit. The natural weapons don't.

If they think you will be a tough grappler and there are other better targets then you have just saved yourself from being grappled.

But that really only works until your first initiative. As soon as you cast a glitterdust, scorching ray, or fireball, the gig is up and they know you're some kind of arcane caster.

Sure, it can be seen through with strong enough magic, but so what? If they are useing time to see through it then that helps out the party, if they are magical enough to always have something like that running then there are still other things to be done and the caster can get other items which are better options (the hat was mentioned because it is so incredibly cheap, available very early on when the caster is most vulnerable).

My point was that they can be seen through rather easily without magic. The sequence goes like this. Mr Hat of Disguise walks into the dungeon appearing to wear fullplate. The orc makes a spot check and sees that Mr. Hat of disguise is moving at 30 instead of 20. He makes a will save. (At DC 11, his odds are pretty good even as a MM orc). He also makes a listen check and hears that Mr. Hat of Disguise's fullplate isn't making any noise. He makes another will save. The orc's commander throws a javalin at Mr. Hat of Disguise. It seems to go right through the plume on his helmet as if it weren't there or goes right through the fullplate and slices into unprotected flesh without the tearing sound you would expect from metal striking metal. The orc makes another will save. All a character needs to do to see through the most effective disguises is to have a pair of eyes, a pair of ears, and minimal expererience with weapons and armor (proficiency certainly qualifies). A more subtle disguise (appearing to be wearing leather armor and a black cloak with a rapier at his hip for instance) will be harder to see through (since leather armor doesn't normally hinder speed or make noise and mage armor provides similar protection) but won't deter grapples nearly as effectively--rogues are nearly as good as wizards when selecting grapple targets.

Grappling is generally an inferior combat option.

Only if you do it poorly and in the wrong situations. Then again, fireballs, scorching rays, magic missiles, and charges are inferior combat options if you do them at the wrong place or time.

Being slightly better at doing your thing when someone else is doing something that is making themselves worse is not exactly a huge benefit.

But that's not what happens with smart grapplers.

Sorcs are in the worst boat, wizards are next, and then psions are on top. Big deal. Better in a pretty marginal case. Woo.

Still, has little to nothing to do with the topic.

Well, we've established that psions have nearly the staying power of sorcerors, the flexibility and feats of wizards, and can blast out their damage over a shorter time frame than either class if they go balls to the wall and put everything on the line. They're less vulnerable to grapple--probably the most glaring weakness of sorcerors and wizards--than any other class except the druid and fighters and monks designed with grappling in mind.

I don't think there's really much room to question the conclusion of the topic: psions are simply better blasters than sorcerors or wizards. The only areas in which they fall behind wizards are party buffing and battlefield control spells.