Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard

[Thanee]

Just read on below the part you quoted...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Check out this wizard. 115 spells at 11th character level, ignoring cantrips.

Look, here's the spellbook of my 12th level wizardess (all in boccob's, of course):

Spellbook:
0th - Resistance, Acid Splash, Detect Poison, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Ghost Sound, Disrupt Undead, Touch of Fatigue, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Prestidigitation, Silent Portal [MoF], Launch Bolt [MoF];
1st - Alarm, Endure Elements, Protection from Evil, Shield, Mage Armor, Mount, Unseen Servant, Comprehend Languages, Detect Secret Doors, Identify, True Strike, Charm Person, Disguise Self, Nystul's Magic Aura, Silent Image, Ray of Enfeeblement, Animate Rope, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump, Reduce Person, Know Protections [MoF], Kaupaer's Skittish Nerves [MoF];
2nd - Arcane Lock, Resist Energy, Glitterdust, Web, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object, See Invisibility, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Misdirection, Blindness/Deafness, Command Undead, False Life, Alter Self, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Darkvision, Eagle's Splendor, Fox's Cunning, Knock, Owl's Wisdom, Rope Trick, Familiar Pocket [T&B], Create Magic Tattoo [PGtF], Blindsight [PGtF], Lively Step [PGtF];
3rd - Dispel Magic, Magic Circle against Evil, Magic Circle against Law, Magic Circle against Chaos, Protection from Energy, Phantom Steed, Arcane Sight, Clairvoyance/Clairaudiance, Tongues, Heroism, Suggestion, Displacement, Invisibility Sphere, Major Image, Gentle Repose, Fly, Gaseous Form, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Shrink Item, Slow, Water Breathing, Repair Serious Damage [T&B], Enhance Familiar [T&B], Mestil's Acid Breath [MoF], Khelben's Suspended Silence [MoF], Amanuensis [MoF], Deeper Darkvision [UD];
4th - Dimensional Anchor, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, Leomund's Secure Shelter, Arcane Eye, Detect Scrying, Locate Creature, Scrying, Charm Monster, Confusion, Animate Dead, Enervation, Polymorph, Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer, Stone Shape, Fortify Familiar [T&B], Spell Enhancer [PGtF], Superior Darkvision [UE];
5th - Break Enchantment, Dismissal, Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, Cloudkill, Leomund's Secret Chest, Major Creation, Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound, Wall of Stone, Contact Other Plane, Prying Eyes, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Hold Monster, Magic Jar, Fabricate, Overland Flight, Passwall, Telekinesis, Permanency, Energy Buffer [T&B], Ghostform [T&B], Lutzaen's Frequent Jaunt [MoF], Kiss of the Vampire [MoF], Shape Metal [RoF];
6th - Antimagic Field, Greater Dispel Magic, Guards and Wards, Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI, Wall of Iron, Analyze Dweomer, True Seeing, Geas/Quest, Greater Heroism, Mass Suggestion, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone, Mordenkainen's Lucubration, Move Earth, Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability [T&B], Hardening [MoF], Stone Body [PGtF], Stone Metamorphosis [UD];

And I tell you it cost a fortune to pay for those!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Allanon]

...
And I tell you it cost a fortune to pay for those!

The fact that the wizard has the fortune to pay for it makes this point moot. Character wealth is an inherent part of the D&D d20 system. Thus any credible comparison between the Psion and the Wizard needs to take this into account. Thus Psion's point on the Wizard having more spells and thus being MUCH more versatile still stands. Your feelings in the matter concerning the riches needed to obtain these spells are not a valid counterpoint.

On the matter of balance between the wizard, sorcerer and the psion after reading everyone’s statement it seems to me it's rather balanced. Thanee has a point in pure one-shot blasting power the Psion kineticist as an edge but that doesn't make the class as is unbalanced. It only makes the player who makes full use of said fact a munchkin. A Psion has much more options than simply being a full on, all or nothing nuke. It can be, but as Psion (the staffreviewer not the class ) shows it wouldn't be grossly more effective nor would it be fun (not to me anyways).

Just my 0,02 cents

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The fact that the wizard has the fortune to pay for it makes this point moot. Character wealth is an inherent part of the D&D d20 system. Thus any credible comparison between the Psion and the Wizard needs to take this into account. Thus Psion's point on the Wizard having more spells and thus being MUCH more versatile still stands. Your feelings in the matter concerning the riches needed to obtain these spells are not a valid counterpoint.

Actually, I think Thanee's point is valid, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. When comparing classes, you have to take wealth into account. If it costs the wizard 100,000gp to gain these extra spells used in the comparison, then you need to give the psion an extra 100,000gp worth of gear, then make the comparison. You can't compare an unequipped psion to a wizard using up half his wealth, have them come up equal, and call that balanced.

Note that 100,000gp is a made-up number, and I don't know how the balance plays out, but Thanee's point about the gp cost of a wizard's versatility is anything but moot.

 

[Allanon]

Actually, I think Thanee's point is valid, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. When comparing classes, you have to take wealth into account. If it costs the wizard 100,000gp to gain these extra spells used in the comparison, then you need to give the psion an extra 100,000gp worth of gear, then make the comparison. You can't compare an unequipped psion to a wizard using up half his wealth, have them come up equal, and call that balanced.

Note that 100,000gp is a made-up number, and I don't know how the balance plays out, but Thanee's point about the gp cost of a wizard's versatility is anything but moot.

True, but in here own comparison between the classes she herself gave the Psion more items than either the sorcerer or the wizard, thus my conclusion that her point is moot.

You are right though about wealth being an essential part in the comparison, unless some really shows everyone the complete picture of all three classes, I doubt this 'debate' will be resolved anytime soon.

 

[Testament]

It seems to me that people here are focussing on only one element of the Psion: blatty death. And I agree, in that department the Savant (I prefer that name) is rivalled only by the Warmage.

This is the problem though. Like the warmage, the Psychokinteic emphasising Psion has limited capacity to do anyhing else. They can't teleport the party. They can't fly. They can't polymorph. They lack almost any kind of support casting ability (which is all found on the other Disciplinary lists). And much of it is self only! Focusing solely on the considerable ability of the Psion to blow stuff up, and then calling it broken based on that is not a fair comparison. But that is the focus of this thread I guess.

Yes, Augmentation is very nice. Not all damage dealing powers boost the DC when you aug though. And the psion loses out majorly to the Wizard in one other respect: Metamagic/Psionics. The Psion can only apply one metapsionic feat at a time, burning up more of their precious PPs in the process. And if they want to do 2, then they have to blow a feat in order to get a Psicrystal, and ANOTHER to enable it to hold focus. 2 Feats is not cheap by any standard. And I don't know about you, but that maximised magic missile plus a quickened fireball combo is always nice.

Taking a look at Psionic ranges, I see an awful lot of "short" listed, and even more "ray". Ranged touches don't always hit, and Energy Ball is not the only power people will fling. There is the issue of collateral damage.

Here's where the Psion's big weakness comes into play. Lack of flexibility. The requirement to focus on a discipline, thus losing out on other forms of spellcastin support is the first kick. The keying of a great many psionic abilities to focus is another. And before you bring up Psionic Meditation, that still costs you a feat, and not everyone will automatically play human for that sweet sweet bonus feat!

Armour wearing capability, and silent still spells automatically? Armour still costs a feat (man, those slots are getting thin on the ground right about now!), and lack of VSM on the description is a false positive. People still know when you're slinging mojo around from the displays.

Are Psions better than Sorcs as shelldrags? Probably, but then again, Sorc is one of the most underpowered classes in the PHB. And they can do more than just blow stuff up, which is more than can be said for a Kineticist. Psions require a lot of planning to build well, the comparatively small number of powers known, the keying of so many nice abilities to feats, and the management of PP make them a challenge to run. If you go auging willy-nilly, that tank gets dry REAL fast.

Damn this is a long post. I'll shut up and return you to your regular programming: Thanee vs Psion!

 

[Psion]

Actually, I think Thanee's point is valid, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. When comparing classes, you have to take wealth into account.

Sure. But Thannee awarded himself a 36,000 GP item in his inherent analysis of characters able to make a torc. Characters on both sides of the balance sheet have access to their wealth.

 

[Taren Seeker]

A number of people have posted that Psions can be better artillery than sorc/wizards.

So what?

Just because Arcanists used to be the kings of damage dealing doesn't mean that they had to stay that way. Psionics creates a new paradigm that can change class roles. With a Psion in the party the Wizard doesn't need to focus on offense as much, so he can focus on the psion's weaknesses: Party support and general utility. (Fly, Invis, stat buffing, Heroism, etc etc etc).

That's a good thing.

BTW, anecdote here: I played a 14th level Kineticist in a combat heavy adventure, 3 big fights before we rested. I was buffed to the gills and finished the day with 17 PP. That's with spending several rounds each combat just watching and only stepping in when someone was getting into trouble. ie: doing a big softening power (overchanneled Energy Wave/Missile, or Astral Construct) in the first round to give the rest of the party a decisive advantage then staying on overwatch. Oh and yes I had the Torc of uberness or whatever Thanee calls it so I would have been tapped without that. The fights probably averaged 3-4 rounds.

I am building a Psion cohort right now for my fighter and while looking at powers I keep thinking about making her a mage instead. SOO many useful buffs are Personal only.

 

[Allanon]

...BTW, anecdote here: I played a 14th level Kineticist in a combat heavy adventure, 3 big fights before we rested. I was buffed to the gills and finished the day with 17 PP. That's with spending several rounds each combat just watching and only stepping in when someone was getting into trouble. ie: doing a big softening power (overchanneled Energy Wave/Missile, or Astral Construct) in the first round to give the rest of the party a decisive advantage then staying on overwatch. Oh and yes I had the Torc of uberness or whatever Thanee calls it so I would have been tapped without that....

Then shouldn't this discussion about the overpoweredness of the psion revolve around this "Torc of Überness", it seems to be at the root of this problem .

 

[Psion]

Nope, I just add what you are leaving out, nothing else. Comparing damage only (like Scion does, too) is not meaningful, as it ignores the rest of the picture.

As I said last time, I am not comparing damage only. But pure damage output, and taking into account caps, is a figure that DOES bear on the situation.

Remember the Mystic Theurge? Much more spells per day than a sorcerer and all of them are of lower levels. This example shows quite effectively, that the above is most certainly true. While the low level spells are not useless they are simply not as useful as the high level ones and that even if you rack two of those together.

Of course they are not useless. But they are not irrelevant, either. In fact, IME, they remain highly relevant.

What does it help the sorcerer to have all these damage dice, if they cannot be brought to bear in a situation where it counts?

Again, your assumption, not mine. And IME, false.

Yes, and this tactic still reduces the number (and thus breadth) of instantly available spells. It's still probably the best way to go for a wizard, but it's not like it would give them the flexibility of spontaneous casting in a situation where resting simply isn't possible.

Okay, you are really making me repeat myself. The fact that a wizard will have more spells and has a mechanism to access just the spell out of many more spells is a factor that cannot be ignored.

Nope, it doesn't show anything. That's why I blithely throw it out as irrelvant. It is.

I see we have no basis for communication then. Further, it seems to me that you are in stark denial of relevant and pertinent facts bearing on the very topic of this post.

If you don't compare on a fair level, of course things do not look like they really are.

And you do not perceive that you are the one not comparing on a fair level by dismissing the facts on how much damage a sorcerer can do owing to the fact that a sorcerer gets free damage scaling?

You only add in the potency for the sorcerer and ignore pretty much everything for the psion, by just adding up their power points as damage dice. Like the fact how many of those can be brought to bear in a single action and how often this can be done, more often than the sorcerer could ever dream of.

Which is really only pertinent if you play by the "one dungeon room and then stop for tea and crumpets" model of play.

So the Mystic Theurge is MUCH, MUCH more powerful as a spellcaster, since adding up their spell slots this way is even higher, eh?

A quick search will reveal that at higher levels (MT 8-10 or so), yes , this factor makes MTs modestly overpowered, when coupled with their unprecedented flexibility and synergy between spell lists.