Help fixing skill-boosting items

[GameGuru4]

I know there are surely threads around here that talk about the problems of magic items that boost skills, but since I am not a community member, I can't do a search, and I'd really rather not search through all the threads in here given that it's finals week and that'd take, well...forever.

So, how do some of you deal with the problems of items that boost skills?

As an example, in my current game a sneaky woodalnds archer-type (ranger/fighter/Order of Bow Initiate/Assassin) has a cloak of elvenkind, boots of elvenkind, max ranks in Hide, good Dex, etc, etc..., so he's got a Hide score that is effectively "you can't see me", unless I give the baddies tons of spot-boosting items, which is lame. I mean, sure, some people have spot-boosting items, but giving it to many people that they cross paths with just to balance out his items is dumb and unjustifiable (IMO).

So, I'm working on a new campaign world for when this game ends (it's been going nearly 4 years, and it'll probably wind down in not too terribly long). I want to fix the skill-boosting items in that game, and hence I solicit advice, or links to threads already detailing this.

Thanks.

 

[Phaedrus]

Just in response to Hide... You can be the best hider in the world but it won't do you any good in a well-lit room with few furnsishings when the person/monster knows you are there. Not every encounter area is conducive to hiding and moving silently. Open desert, wide caverns, boats in middle of lakes, etc.

Even if they get a surprise round all/most of the time... is that so bad?

 

[kreynolds]

So, how do some of you deal with the problems of items that boost skills?

Personally, I evaluate it on a skill by skill basis. For example, +30 to Jump most certainly does not yield the same result as +30 to Hide. Some skills are much more useful than others, meaning you get a greater or lesser return depending upon the skill in question.

As an example, in my current game a sneaky woodalnds archer-type (ranger/fighter/Order of Bow Initiate/Assassin) has a cloak of elvenkind, boots of elvenkind, max ranks in Hide, good Dex, etc, etc..., so he's got a Hide score that is effectively "you can't see me"...

Sounds like the "most hated ranger of all time" in one my games.

...unless I give the baddies tons of spot-boosting items, which is lame.

Definately a poor tactic.

I mean, sure, some people have spot-boosting items, but giving it to many people that they cross paths with just to balance out his items is dumb and unjustifiable (IMO).

I couldn't agree more. However, even as a DM, I feel the need to mention that sometimes it's quite alright for a character to be really good at something. On average, the "most hated ranger of all time" in my game rolls a 35 on his Hide check. I don't complain much about it. Sometimes it works in his favor, like when he avoids a fight, but that doesn't get him as much XP as he could have received. Sometimes it grants him more because he's so good at it, such as when success of his current task heavily depends upon maintaining stealth. That player never asked me for those items specifically. He perfectly justified the aquisition through roleplay, so I don't have a problem with it.

Sometimes, characters really are just that damn good.

I want to fix the skill-boosting items in that game, and hence I solicit advice, or links to threads already detailing this.

Your best bet is to just limit what's available to purchase, and limit what can be found in treasure. If you have an item-creating spellcaster in your party, you might run into some difficulty. If that's the case, you'll probably have to establish a set limit on any type of skill bonus, such as +5 for each type (+5 competence, +5 circumstance, +5 luck, etc.). This would prevent some of the higher total bonuses to certain skills.

However, if you do decide to establish some kind of limit, you'll run into trouble if you ever get into epic level play. High bonuses are a necessity to truly do anything 'epic' at that point.

Basically, just use your best judgement.

 

[Spatzimaus]

How'd I fix it? Well, it's a tough one. Let's look at how it works right now:

> Cost: (bonus^2) * 20gp
> Requires creator to have skill of (bonus/2) ranks OR a spell that gives a comparable ability (Invisibility for Hide, etc.). Yes, I know not every item has this, but it's a majority, enough that I think it's more a fundamental part of the item than a use of the "requiring a skill reduces cost" thing.
> No cap on how much an individual skill can be boosted, since these are circumstance bonuses instead of skill ranks
> No penalty for boosting a cross-class skill. If you want Hide and Move Silently, don't bother taking a class that has it, just buy a couple +10 items.

Each of these is a problem, IMHO. You could raise the cost to n^2 * 100 and it'd still be cheap for many skills. I pointed out in the other threads how much difference a +5 makes on opposed skill checks (instead of 47.5/5/47.5%, it's now 70/3.75/26.25% chance of win/draw/lose). That would only cost you 500gp under the core rules, 2500 under even this higher price. What high-level character WOULDN'T want that, even at double price for a slotless item?

As kreynolds said, it really varies by skill. Some skills (Jump, Appraise, Profession, Tumble) just don't benefit much from overkill. Either you succeed or you don't, so a +10 versus a +30 just isn't significant. On the other hand, for any skill that isn't used in combat but where extra ranks help (Scry, Craft, Perform, etc.) you could just pull a +10 item out of your haversack any time you need to make a skill check.

Here was a possible solution we came up with on this board before. It hasn't been used yet, and it's a big change, but it's a start.
> Cost: bonus^2 * 100gp (maybe cut it in half for "useless" skills like Jump, DM's discretion)
> Requires creator to have a number of skill ranks equal to the bonus of the item (not half)
> The bonuses are all Enhancement bonuses, so you can't stack ones for the same skill but they DO stack with circumstance bonuses.
> The bonus is treated as extra ranks of the skill ONLY for the purpose of skill checks. This means that the item can't take you beyond the maximum available to your class.
If you've maxxed out that skill for your level, a +skill item won't help at all (possibly house-rule it to give a minimum +2, sorta like masterwork). If it's a cross-class skill, your cap will be lower, so a Wizard can't load up on Hide/Move Silently items to pretend he's a Rogue.
(Reason I have the "only for skill checks" part is to keep you from using a +skill item to make a bigger +skill item; I mean, there are VERY few uses of skills other than skill checks, so this normally won't be an issue.)

Even with this nerfing, I'd STILL want a lot of +skill items. The problem is, who wants a +5 skill bonus more, the person with no ranks or the one who's maxxed it out?

To compensate for this, I was thinking of tweaking it further, making the price be (100gp x Caster Level x Bonus) and have the Caster Level be the maximum number of ranks the item could take you to (replacing the "can't go beyond your own max" limit).
That is, a level 7 Rogue with 10 ranks of Hide wants a +Hide item that takes him to 15 pseudoranks (which might give him a +20 Hide check), so he has to find a 15th-level caster to make him an item, and it'd cost 100x15x5=7500gp. If he then gains a level and puts a point in Hide, he'd still have 15 "ranks" since the item can't take him beyond its own caster level, so he might want to buy a CL 20 version from the start. A bit more expensive, but a longer lifespan.
One nice side effect: no +21 or higher items until you go Epic.

 

[Vuron]

Well don't let the ranger take 10 in stressful situations, if he has to worry about rolling the occasional 1 he will be more careful about operating alone.

If the villians are aware of the ranger, listen rolls while the ranger is moving, scent feat, etc they are likely to take 20 to spot anything out of the ordinary. The object is not to negate the advantages of the PC but to use his opponents realistically.

 

[-Eä-]

You could always use a cubic formula instead of a quadratic one. Doing this will seriously make high skill boost items expenive. I would suggest bonus^3*10

[[1, 10], [2, 80], [3, 270], [4, 640], [5, 1250], [6, 2160], [7, 3430], [8, 5120], [9, 7290], [10, 10000], [11, 13310], [12, 17280], [13, 21970], [14, 27440], [15, 33750], [16, 40960], [17, 49130], [18, 58320], [19, 68590], [20, 80000], [21, 92610], [22, 106480], [23, 121670], [24, 138240], [25, 156250], [26, 175760], [27, 196830], [28, 219520], [29, 243890], [30, 270000]]

270 000 for a +30 item is a bit more than 18 000 (-;

However, for this change, I suggest removing the Epic*10 modifier, as the cubic formula will render it useless: Eventually skill boosting items will get more expensive than weapons.