Help in getting a second sneak attack

[Lanefan]

In the game I play in our primary Thief has a +1 shortsword that once per day on command generates his clone. This clone shows up with all possessions, abilities, etc. of the Thief except it doesn't have its own cloning sword. It can only be generated when the shortsword is wielded in melee, and the clone sticks around until the combat is done then vanishes. For every 10 points of damage sustained by the clone the Thief takes 1, though no extra harm comes to the Thief if the clone dies; and the clone suffers no damage if the Thief gets hurt. If the Thief dies in combat the clone keeps going on autopilot until the combat is done; and even at the best of times the clone cannot communicate or think for itself beyond the most rudimentary combat tactics.

I'm not sure if the clone stays around if the Thief withdraws or flees from combat.

Would this help?

 

[CapnZapp]

Hmm, so he's a melee rogue as well - that really does highlight the classes' squishiness.

What level are they now? Extra attack will outshine SA, btu SA will keep growing. Don't want to make them too powerful.

Does your rogue have problems delivering SA some runds? Becasue a second attack or an attack bonus might go a long way to making that more consistent and upping DPR without the "obvious" second SA.

Entirely correct. Just like Rangers, WotC have let melee Rogues down big time.

About the only upside of being a melee Rogue is easier access to magic weaponry. Which is precisely what this thread is about

I have advised the player he could stand to gain something from dual-wielding (=a second shot at getting in his sneak dice even if the main attack misses). Unsure of why he doesn't. Maybe he's conscious of his squishiness; I think he's got a feature that grants +1 AC if fighting with one hand empty, but not sure.

They just now levelled up to 9.

 

[CapnZapp]

Rogues have never had any issues keeping up damage wise in my experience. Particularly if they have strong magic items as well.

Feel free to say something helpful too

 

[CapnZapp]

Have their roguish charm and connections provide them with roguish side-kick? Extra sneak attack, pair of hands, someone to grab expensive coffees...

True, but with six players and a "quest NPC" (Mesika from Ruins of Mezro 'ventures) there's simply no room.

He does have a Griffon that he likes very much Not useful down in sunken temples thou.

 

[Zardnaar]

In the game I play in our primary Thief has a +1 shortsword that once per day on command generates his clone. This clone shows up with all possessions, abilities, etc. of the Thief except it doesn't have its own cloning sword. It can only be generated when the shortsword is wielded in melee, and the clone sticks around until the combat is done then vanishes. For every 10 points of damage sustained by the clone the Thief takes 1, though no extra harm comes to the Thief if the clone dies; and the clone suffers no damage if the Thief gets hurt. If the Thief dies in combat the clone keeps going on autopilot until the combat is done; and even at the best of times the clone cannot communicate or think for itself beyond the most rudimentary combat tactics.

I'm not sure if the clone stays around if the Thief withdraws or flees from combat.

Would this help?

Our thief has a +2 dagger.

The fighter has the best weapon, a +2 spear thats finesse and grants resistance to lightning.

Short swords of speed can help up to a point, and things like flametongues.

Sneak attack is also not OP, only at will. I think the OP is fishing for a way to make an argument in another thread about sneak attack attack granting at will being OP. You can do it in the core rules with powerful magic items or situational and limited spells.

The designers were tight around things like reactions and bonus actions, something I noticed when you give a dual wielder a shortsword of speed which ended up going to the fighter.

Rogues have never been the best damage dealers in any edition its mostly about the nova damage (backstab in OSR games, sneak attack in 3E and 5E), perhaps accuracy in 4E (+1 to hit, ability to target non AC defences beaten by Rangers for DPS).

 

[CapnZapp]

As a DM if you play it like 4E and 3E and give PCs magical equivalents of what they want

To be sure, I am playing like 3E in that there are items.

But they can't buy or create anything they want. Only the things they find (in dungeons or shoppes). I am trying my best to avoid combining the best weapons with the best enchantments, but that only goes so far (meaning I can't very well feature zero magic greataxes, since from the player's perspective that amounts to a ban on the build).

But just because the barbarian and paladin gets the occasional +1 greatsword doesn't mean I can't given even better stuff to the rogue.

The Sentinel ability to react-attack on a miss combined with invisibility sounds like a good bet right now, but I haven't read the entire thread yet

 

[CapnZapp]

Traditionally, D&D rogues have been skill monkeys, not DPS kings. 5e gives them a lot of help - in 1st-3rd edition their DPS was horribad - but parties still bring a rogue for their skills, not their DPS. MMOs made rogues DPS because they had less use for skills, but a player coming from a MMO may choose rogue under false pretences.

And 5E does the best job yet of preserving their niche, at least with the "investigation" skill (I've moved every find trap / spot hidden usage from Perception to Investigate)

But skills simply aren't central to D&D. And they can't be - the adventure needs to work even for parties without rogues.

Sure you can have a campaign with significantly less focus on combat than default (and certainly than mine), but in the context of this thread, I want to focus less on "yep, rogue's can't keep up in combat-heavy situations" and more on "what can be done to make rogues keep up in combat-heavy situations".

A ring of invisibility seems like a good fit for a Rogue - finally enabling his hidery and sneakery to work reliably in many situations. Whether my player sees value in Sentinel remains to be seen.

Some suggestions:

1) Give the rogue a chance to shine. Make the adventure about stealing something without getting caught, rather than killing everything in sight.

Problem is that's a solo scenario. The group tends to avoid making choices where one player does the playin' while the others watch.

They even try sneaking up on foes everybody together. Sure, it fails 90% of the time (since there's always at least one bad roll), but at least it means everyone gets to join into combat at the same time.

Having a point man walk two rounds ahead simply is more interesting for the point man than for the people in the rear who find they have to waste the two first rounds of combat just catching up.

2) dropping rogue friendly magic items can help if they are underperforming, but forget about sneak attack - something like an Amulet of Health can give them fighter-like HP and encourage them to play more aggressively.

Thank you for your honest reply. If this thread doesn't yield anything useful then I'll keep this in mind.

3) Kill them. Seriously, if they don't like their character kill them off and encourage them to make something more to their taste. A dex fighter or ninja-like monk is thematically similar but will probably have better DPS. Less drastically, encourage them to multi-class to fighter.

lol

 

[Zardnaar]

To be sure, I am playing like 3E in that there are items.

But they can't buy or create anything they want. Only the things they find (in dungeons or shoppes). I am trying my best to avoid combining the best weapons with the best enchantments, but that only goes so far (meaning I can't very well feature zero magic greataxes, since from the player's perspective that amounts to a ban on the build).

But just because the barbarian and paladin gets the occasional +1 greatsword doesn't mean I can't given even better stuff to the rogue.

The Sentinel ability to react-attack on a miss combined with invisibility sounds like a good bet right now, but I haven't read the entire thread yet

Sentinel is a good way of doing it, even if they hit the rogue they can half the damage with uncanny dodge. Its situational but fires often enough (50/50) The big mistake I see Rogue players do is use the mobility to snipe with a shortbow. Melee get in there. Or they over use the bonus action withdraw part (instead of dual wielding)

You can also put in +2 items as long as you don't put it on the best weapons and armor. +2 breastplate, daggers, spears things like that work.

Alot of the 5E APs also lack things like magic polearms, hand crossbows, etc but short swords, long swords, daggers, spears are fairly common. The occasional longbow turns up, have not seen a magic handcrossbow (make them use magic weapon spell).

Splashing a fighter level also helps for dex to off hand damage (all Rogues should dual wield except masterminds).

To many 5E Rogue players are bad@roguing is also a problem.

 

[Zardnaar]

To be sure, I am playing like 3E in that there are items.

But they can't buy or create anything they want. Only the things they find (in dungeons or shoppes). I am trying my best to avoid combining the best weapons with the best enchantments, but that only goes so far (meaning I can't very well feature zero magic greataxes, since from the player's perspective that amounts to a ban on the build).

But just because the barbarian and paladin gets the occasional +1 greatsword doesn't mean I can't given even better stuff to the rogue.

The Sentinel ability to react-attack on a miss combined with invisibility sounds like a good bet right now, but I haven't read the entire thread yet

Put in a magic greataxe that creates light or has a defensive effect (resistance to radiant is good).

 

[CapnZapp]

I think it's always a good idea to throw in some high AC enemies anyway, a lot of 5e monsters have low ACs and high hp. Will-o-Wisps are one creature that has high AC straight out of the MM.

Heh.

I heavily foreshadowed the cave they were thinking about camping in was cursed and bad news. They camped there anyway.

At night a dwarf noblewoman (a banshee) and her four maids (will'o'wisps) attacked from the walls on every side.

(If you are familiar with their stats you'll be happy to hear that, yes, this makes for one of those rare times when "save or die" really applies to 5E...)

That was a long time ago, though.