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help making Terry Goodkinds wizard/sorcere

The mord-sith have that little stick thingie that they can kill or torture people with- I forget what it is called. But they have lots of powers even when there are no enemy spellcasters that they can use their "power trapping" ability on. But yeah, I can see how they might be better as NPCs.

Given how slowly wizards develop under a Sister of the Light's tutelage- maybe that represents the gradual accumulation of experience that characterizes DnD. Dunno. I know Richard seems to use True Strike a lot, and a lot of magic that enhances his combat ability. Maybe it's just the sword of truth, maybe not, but a careful selection of spells (and more eldritch knight type classes) might do the trick.
 

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Wait, wait, wait. I distinctly remember reading this:

Originally Posted by Morgoth
So because of that, i've removed the clerics, and gave the wizards and sorceres the ability to heal. Also I have to make a difference between the sorcere and wiziards. Wizards in the books have a greater magic, so I tried to boost them. So I'm just asking for advice, specialy from those who have read the books.

So before your turn, I'd like to play a card. There was another thread around here somewhere buried in the HR section which said, in short, let's get rid of the Clerics and combine the two spell lists.

I haven't read the books, so I'm talking from a purely balance standpoint, and that point is this: If you're going to remove Clerics, then you cannot (okay, "should not", this being the HR board) give their spell list to a Sorceror/Wizard build AND give that build the Arcane base spell list. It unbalances the class and you'll have these sort of bizarre, "I can do anything" caster types with very little reason to work with anyone else. I doubt that's what you're looking for.

Now, as I admitted, I haven't read the books (I think I got confused with Terry Brooks, but danged if I know anymore) so I'm not the person to help you do the build without more background information as to exactly what this class is supposed to accomplish. I can definately, within a fair step, tell you if what you're doing is balanced or not, so let's work towards getting you there, and keeping your sense of accuracy to the class as you see it.

Nyaricus & Cheiromancer: You've clearly read this series. Are there specific points you can make to help me, the unitiated, come up with a build in a splat book or do a simple modification to an existing build that gets Morgoth closer to where he wants to be without breaking the balance mechanics? Because I'd like to help, if I can, and recognizing that as an HR he can do what he likes, I would submit that doing what you like and keeping it balanced are two separate things.

I'm honestly unsure if what he's talking about is a new base class, or as Cheiromancer says, it's actually closer to a PrC (which is what I'm assuming Mord-Sith are).
 

My thoughts: I know that in Goodkind's world, they are called "Wizards" because what they do seems like magic, but it really does seem, to me, to be considerably more based on inner strength and mental focus than acquisition of tomes and redirecting arcane forces from other planes . I'm really thinking they'd best be considered Psionic characters that seem to have a knack for making items out of the magical creatures all around them. Not reliant on spellbooks for daily spells, but they do write down exotic ideas and bring them to life, like psionic research.. healing with the power of the mind (wouldn't an AD&D Wizard love to do that?).

-One item is the painstick known and favored by the Mord-Sith, the Agiel. An Agiel is something we all try to avoid. :)

Creating a Goodkind Wizard, in his world, means starting off with powers you are not sure of the extent of, that you need more practice with, and which might kill you if you don't have some advice pretty quickly. You also start off being enmeshed in other people's prophecies. Then there's being the sought-for snack of choice by most evil entities, and being hunted by evil people because they get a kick out of slurping your special essence out of your skin.

There should be templates or paths like the career choices a Psion has to make, about Additive or Subtractive Magic, and of course being able to use both is a hefty level adjustment. :) There should be a Wise Woman class, such as Adie is, who can think circles around most foes and then apply her bit of power to the most appropriate spot. Then there are crafted predators, weapons of war, such as the Confessor, the Dreamwalker, the Slider, the Mord-Sith.. All different character classes, although some may not be suitable for PC play. I'm thinking of Prophets when I mention that. Don't forget that Dwarven Runesmiths may have some of the rules you want, already precooked - some people like living in ensorcelled buildings, where they don't age hardly as much. Need runes for that.

Goodkind Wizards seem to spend an awful amount of time getting beaten up or trying too hard to perform - having a good Con and deep HP reserve are hugely important for someone spending life energy to get the job done. Multiclassing to Wizard later, after being "a woods guide" for a while, might be a good way to ensure that improved survival. Seemed to help Richard Rahl, at least. :)
 

A lot of the balance issues I've seen cropping up in this thread so far can be solved by using Elements of Magic (Revised Edition) from E.N. Publishing. Or you might consider checking out Elements of Magic - Mythic Earth which recently went to press. I think one or the other just may have what you are looking for; they had what I was looking for when I wanted a game with an Earthsea theme, and again when I wanted a Knights of the Round Table theme, and again when I wanted a Final Fantasy theme... do you get where I'm going with this?

It's been a couple of years, but from what I remember a lot of the more "interesting" powers could be represented by EOM classes. For example, the confessors could be covered by the Anima class in Lyceian Arcana (the companion book to Elements of Magic (Revised Edition) if you chose Anima powers appropriate to the confessor theme.

An interesting fact about EOM-R and EOM-ME is that most spells are created on the fly, but you'd have to adapt to allow the removal of verbal and somatic components without metamagic. Normally you can do so via a tradition feat in EOM-R, but EOM-ME allows all spellcasters to do it without any feats. The problem? Casting a spell normally takes two rounds, and it takes at least one round to become focused in order to cast your next spell without the components and without increasing spell level or requiring metamagic feats. Of course, I always hated the "fire and forget as a standard action" method anyway. :p Taking 6 seconds (full-round action) to focus and then 12 seconds (2 full-round actions) to cast works just fine in this sort of setting. If there are spells that you cast more frequently, you can make them signature spells and cast them as a standard action (still requiring the full-round action to become focused if you are going to cast without V/S components).

If you want to know more about Elements of Magic (Revised Edition), Lyceian Arcana, and Elements of Magic - Mythic Earth, check the reviews page on EN World under the company E.N. Publishing, or check RPGNow's reviews.
 

Hmmm, some very cool points in here . . . I haven't read Goodkinds books in a while, and i had forgotten the recent-ish plot development thatmany of the "PrC" were forged and shaped in that long-ago era before the boundaries went up.

I am feeling a wee bit inadequte as i haven't read these books in awhile, but they are excellent fantasy literature (Thia, do you know where your library card is? :P).

To help explain a bit of the concept here (for Thia's, and others sake); basically, There is Additive and Subtractive magic. Nowadays, most peopel either have one type or the other, but before a huge war, many Wizards could utilize both. Basically, Additive is "good" and "light" magic whereas Subtractive is "evil" and "dark" magic. Richard Rahl (the main character) is the heir to an evil emperor [his father] and a powerful and goodly Wizard [his mothers father; his mother was raped]) has both types. He once performed a feat of Additive magic which made his wifes hair (which had been cut off) grow back to ankle-length (or perhaps the base of the back; i forget exactly). Wizards can call forth "Wizards fire" which is like a flamethrower of greek fire, as (mechanically) a class ability.
They are just as diverse as core Wizards, but dont specialze, have spellbooks or memorise spells. Its more like they shape their magic to give them what they need in a given situation (which would be restricted by their level [a level 1 D&D wizard cant cast a lightning bolt, but he can cast shocking grasp, for example]). I am not too familiar with them, but an adaptation of the Warlocks incantation system might be appropriate here (??). I would have to say that a psion variation wouldn't be appropriate; how is studying hours over a spellbook or calling spells from your memory for hours of a day less of a mental task than what a psion does? nothing really; but the relevant bit is that none of the core D&D classes will do for the Terry Goodkind Wizard/Sorerer.

The Sisters of Light/Dark are basically the "priests" of Light and Dark magic. They are almost symbiotic in their relationship with the Wizards because when a Wizard is first learning about his new power, that power may kill him. They put a special, magical collar around Wizards necks which stops the mental wears of their new magical prowness. This has been established as a degenerative practice in the books, because they essentually control the collared individual and can bring great pain to "rebelious" subjects. But, since dieing is almost inevitable without this collar (or the guidance of a senior Wizard, but this is much rarer and i can't reember much of it at this point) the fledgling Wizard usually allows himself to become a virtual slave. The Sisters of Light forward the Goodness of the Maker (IIRC, thats his name, it might be "Creator"; he is basically God) through various ways, but their magic is subtle. Sisters of the Dark foreward evil ideals.

Magic Items are generally utalitarian (such as pairs of matching journals which the keeps of them may essentually "instant message: back and forth by writing on pages) and are from bygone times (so very few can make anythign like that now-a-days)

Magic exists in every being, but only a few can tap into that wellspring and make something come of it. Wizards and the Sisters of the Light/Dark are some of these individuals.
 

Oh, I was thinking of the right series. Wizard's First Rule, that bit. Additive & Subtractive magic. Ayup. I recall this now.

You can't, actually, properly reflect the wizard class from the series in D&D, because it's so poorly defined. Additive & Subtractive magic SOUND very cool but are so inadequately covered that you're left with this sort of Gandalf hybrid character with healing magic and the capacity to trick people. As though the author wants us to believe that a Wizard's greatest power is the illusion he has power.

It made for semi-decent fiction (no flame, please, I'm just overly critical and I find most other people's writing pretty boring, preferring my imagination to theirs) and I briefly wondered "How would I adapt this?" then realized I couldn't. My favorite fantasy series? Feist's Riftwar Saga, which is extremely easy to adapt. Like, crazy easy, except Pug became Epic by book three, as did Tomas. Everyone else was left in the dust after that.

But that's off topic. If you want to include them, then you're going to have to break down their specializations much more carefully; you may also want to grant them Divine Arcanist as an early ability, giving the Wizards access to the Heal domain. Conjuration & Evocation magick are also generally "additive" as they bring things into the world; at no point IIRC is 'destructive' magic considered 'subtractive.' Negative energy effects would be subtractive, but that was part of my beef with the idea. Barring "disintegrate" everything is "additive" - bringing something into the world. The removal of things (levels, stats? maybe?) make it that much more difficult to define.
 

I think transformation effects would require both subtractive and additive abilities. To turn someone into a bird you have to "subtract" their human features and "add" avian ones.

I honestly don't recall how magical healing worked. Did it require additive magic to repair damaged flesh? Do you need subtractive magic to remove infections?
 

See my old arcanist class I just posted here for a starting point. If you want, I've also got the clearly overpowered netherese arcanist version that may be better for wizards (and the regular arcanist for sorceresses).

Keep in mind that it's not strictly true that wizards have no spellbooks. They just don't memorize spells. Things like The Book of Counted Shadows and probably Ordenic Theory contain complex rituals that you have to study in order to perform the appropriate rituals. Every spell a wizard knows had to be learned at some point. Richard doesn't do this, but that's because he's different.

Healing is complicated, and it's only explained metaphorically.
 

Richard is a War Wizard - a user of both sides / types of magic whose magic use is intuitive. Users of pure additive [creative] or pure subtractive [destructive] magic lack this innate intuition and thus must learn their spells. However, the more they learn the easier it is to use less potent forms of magic. Most lower level additive wizards, for instance could not cause their hair to grow at will by stroking it while thinking / concentrating on it growing - as Zedd did in the first book to demonstrate Additive magic. Then he pointed out that he could not remove it with magic, as additive magic could only create or make (additive alterations).

Sounds like the difference between sorcerers and wizards to me, and considering that War Wizards were called such due to their utility in combat, the comparison seems even more apt.

Some other comments:

The idea of a wizard experiencing pain due to their growing powers is odd. I'm not certain how to implement such into the d20 system. Perhaps a daily (weekly?) will save (DC 12?) verse 1d2 Con damage? Given enough time the wizard will either die or reach a high enough level that they no longer have to worry about it. Even level five would be sufficient, especially if you allowed the wizard to meditate for perhaps 10 min every morning to take ten on their save. In a world where magical healing is uncommon and lesser restoration, etc is unknown (or at least rare) then this would perhaps work. Of course, the problem with this is explaining why Richard didn't die under the Mord-Sith if he also had to deal with this. Perhpas, in sealing his power away, they also removed the need for such saves?

Confessors - after a single use - typicallly required a very long time before they could cast again. If I recall correctly, Kahlan (spelling?) explained that many require about a day to renew their "charge" (so to speak), but she was highly unusual in only requiring about two hours. The effect was basically a 1/day use of Dominate Person (indefinate duration). Recall that when she spoke of - in the past - a Mother Confesser subduing a kingdom, she told of the MC taking a large band of Confessers with her. Each would dominate one, the group as a whole (with its ever growing retinue of new (and fanatic) cohorts) sweeping through the palace / castle / town to eventually find the leaders. They would specifically target a leader, then have the leader lead them to the next of higher rank, etc. One (or even a small group) was rarely enough for such a task.

Sorceresses were basically female adepts that had learned the basics on how to aid wizards coming into their powers from the greater (true) wizards of the past. Over time (centuries if not millennia) they came to abuse the trust initially placed in them, allowing their religion to cloud their views of what they were doing and how it worked. They also slid towards a more draconian use of their powers - especially in regards to wizards. Pain and other methods of control were seen as justified - the ends justifying the means. These and other subtle alterations over the centuries allowed Dark equivalent sorceresses to eventually emerge among them, spreading until their number was a significant minority of all of them (if I recall correctly).

The Mord-Sith, on the other hand, were trained in the use of the Agiel - a potent magic item that could seemingly cast any of the Inflict spells (and more) at whim but was limited as a Melee Touch attack. However, the Mord-Sith also experienced what her victim experienced. If they used it to cause an injury, they also felt pain equivalent to (or nearly as great) as that their victim experienced; they just didn't receive the wound that accompanied the pain. It was likely a PrC whose most abilities required a specially made item. Note that the ability to bind a wizard's magic was not absolute or universal. It only worked on a single wizard at a time - using it on another would almost certainly free the first, and there appeared to be a will save of some sort. However, if the wizard was caught by surprise it seemed they had a significant penalty to thier save. Of course, if I recall correctly, Richard was already being affected by some type of control / suggestion spell at the time he met the mord-sith, weaking his ability to resist their ability to seal his power.

Divination magic exists, but it is very very rare and not wholy precise. Prophets are almost exclusively additive mages, and they are hampered by seeing all possible futures, rarely knowing which ones are more or less likely unless they have decades (or even centuries) of experience. This is what makes Nathan so powerful - he is the only prophet in all of history to have had over a thousand years of prophetic study. Granted, this has driven him slight insane (okay, maybe a bit more than slightly), but this also means he has a better understanding of time and potentials than any other that ever lived. He does not necessarily know what to do, but if something happens he knows most of what may result and perhaps has a few clues as to what may encourage / discourage certain paths.

Dreamwalkers seem to be Telepath specialized psions - very very specialized, to the point of exclusion of virutally all other types of powers. There is only one in the series - who admits to having studied the art of it for decades, becoming an unparallelled master of it. While his range is truly extensive, it appears it is not infinite. I would state he is low-epic in psion level with a few levels in fighter &/or rogue tossed in as well.

The Creator is not Good. He is merely Life, Creation, Light, and Growth. The Keeper is Death, Destruction, Dark, and Decay. Both the Creator and the Keeper are indifferent as to whether a person is good or evil. So long as they serve to encourage life, creation, growth, and/or light the Creator may be willing to aid them in some measure. The Keeper is the polar opposite; so long as the person is willing to encourage death, destruction, darkness, and decay It may seek to aid them. The Creator, understandably, is viewed more favorably than the Keeper by the populous.

There exists but two worlds: the Creators realm (the world in which people live) and the Keeper's realm (the afterlife). ALL go to the Keeper after dying. However, the Creator - in a time long prior to mortal existence - bound the Keeper at the lowest depth of Its (afterlife) realm. After dying those that were closest to the Keeper in life tend to sink near to Its level. Those that were not strive to stay as far from it as possible. As the Creator has no afterlife associated with it, this means they are basically non-manifesting, invisible, and intangible ghosts - the "good spirits" as they are called by some (regardless of their alignment).
 
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genshou:
A lot of the balance issues I've seen cropping up in this thread so far can be solved by using Elements of Magic (Revised Edition) from E.N. Publishing. Or you might consider checking out Elements of Magic - Mythic Earth which recently went to press.

Well, about new books, in denmark we got three good stores, and the closest to me is about 120 miles away. even then it's not sure they've got them. But I will try to find those books on the net, but it takes a while before I get them home.

Eloi:
I'm really thinking they'd best be considered Psionic characters that seem to have a knack for making items out of the magical creatures all around them.

I don't know about this, because the magic in the books is far from like psionic, but I'm not the one to say that, 'cause I've never tried to understand psionic in DAD. So maybe. Could you come with an example of the class?

Eloi:
Creating a Goodkind Wizard, in his world, means starting off with powers you are not sure of the extent of, that you need more practice with, and which might kill you if you don't have some advice pretty quickly

I've thought about this, and thinking that all the pc wizards have to be middle age, because they've used there youth to understand there powers.

Dreamwalkers, Mord-sith and Confessors(mainly because of a lack of females in the group), and Prophets will not be pc-classes, because I think they're be more fun, and Prophets in particular, as npc.

Thia Halmades:
I haven't read the books, so I'm talking from a purely balance standpoint, and that point is this: If you're going to remove Clerics, then you cannot (okay, "should not", this being the HR board) give their spell list to a Sorceror/Wizard build AND give that build the Arcane base spell list. It unbalances the class and you'll have these sort of bizarre, "I can do anything" caster types with very little reason to work with anyone else. I doubt that's what you're looking for.

Well, it's ONLY the cure spells they get. And true resurrection, but with a cost of 10000 xp.
So when you die, you DIE! Of course, not if you've got a GOOD friend there's willing to sacrifice himself for you. By doing this, I hope they get a sense of life and death, so they will use their heads a hell lot more. It's been hard for high level pc to have that, because if you're dead, well there stands a cleric beside you, wich just bring you back.
 

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