Help Me Design a Better Multiclass System

[airwalkrr]

The goal of this thread is two-fold:

1) Develop a multiclassing rule (or set of rules) for 3e that reinforces the idea that single class characters are more powerful but less versatile while multiclass characters are more versatile but less powerful.

and

2) Developing a general rule (or set of rules) that can be used to incorporate prestige classes into existing classes and also eschew the need for prestige classes that cater to multiclass spellcasting characters (ala mystic theurge or eldritch knight).

Here is my vision. Multiclassing would be an interesting option that is decidedly weaker than sticking to a single class but is still a viable option for a character alongside single class characters. Most characters will be single class characters and on occassion there will be one, maybe two multiclass characters in the party. Multiclassing would be sufficiently penalizing that a character would rarely wish to have more than 2 different classes and having more than 3 would become severely handicapping. Characters with prestige classes would be found with roughly the same frequency as multiclass characters. A "typical" party might include one multiclass character, one character with a prestige class, and two characters with only one class.

Now I realize this is a tricky task. I recognize that it can have ramifications on other aspects of the game. I want to keep it as simple as possible but nevertheless thorough. I am more interested in developing broad rules that can be applied universally as opposed to specific rules for various circumstances. This is because I wish to preserve the usability of "splatbooks" while abrogating their need to build the most competitive character.

So where should we start? I say we start with a single class character. Let us use a 10th level fighter and a 10th level wizard as paradigms for a non-spellcasting character and a spellcasting character respectively. A multiclass fighter/wizard should not have all of the abilities of both a 10th level fighter and a 10th level wizard but should have more capability than 5th level in both classes (i.e. splitting down the middle) while not being able to outshine either the wizard or the fighter in their primary disciplines. The fighter/wizard will fight better than the wizard and have more usefulness than the fighter in non-combat situations.

The idea of non-associated class levels from the Monster Manual comes into play here. A 10th level fighter clearly does not gain as much benefit from a level of wizard as he does from another level of fighter like a hill giant does not gain as much benefit from a level of wizard as he does from a level of fighter, but under the current rules a Ftr10/Wiz1 is treated as an 11th level character, which, in my opinion, is a rather innaccurate measure of his abilities. If we use the non-associated idea, the fighter/wizard could have the abilities of a 7th level fighter and the abilities of a 6th level wizard while being treated as a 10th level character (the 6 levels of wizard being considered unassociated). Note this does not necessarily mean he must be a 13 HD character. Perhaps he could be a 10 HD character. Perhaps a 7 HD character. Perhaps somewhere in between. I'm simply talking about abilities as in fighter bonus feats and bab vs. wizard spellcasting. Is that enough to balance the fighter/wizard? If so, how can we go about maintaining this level of power between the characters without mucking up the XP system too heavily. It is too powerful? If so, why? Please discuss.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

While its not something I would do, here's one possible method:

Step 1) Disallow multiclassing with base classes. Multiclassing can only be done with PrCls.

Step 2) Alter PrCl prerequisites so that they would not be impossible to meet (because of Step 1 above).

Example #1- instead of mystic theurge requiring levels of both divine and arcane spellcasting classes, it would require levels of divine OR arcane spellcasting. It would still grant dual advancement, but in this setup, one ability set will always lag. The spellcasting charts (for the class not taken) would be based on the Wizard and the Cleric. For PrCls that involve Psionics, like the Cerebromancer, the the psionic power chart would be based on the Psion.

Example #2) Instead of proficiency in blah blah weapons and armor, and blah blah arcane spells, the Spellsword would have to have proficiency in a single martial weapon and at least light armor OR arcane spells of 2nd level, while retaining the requirement to have defeated an opponent in single combat (though dropping the "without magic" requirement).

Step 3) Disallow any PrCl that is, in your opinion, essentially a pumped up version of a base class.

 

[ChrisHaines]

I introduced a mechanic that might offer an alternative. It was derived becuase I eliminated XP from my games. I just leveled up the PCs when I saw fit. If a player wanted to multiclass, they suffered the following effects. When they added a second class, they lost the next feat gained from their overall character level as well as one skill point each level gained thereafter. If they added a third class, they lost the next two feats gained from their overal character level and two skill points each level. If they chose a third class they lost the next three feats and three skill points per level. No one dared go to four or more classes.

In addtion, I altered the Favored Class mechanic due to the fact that I was not using XP anymore. Each level you gained in a Favored class rewarded you with an extra Skill Point. Also, when you reach 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level in your Favored Class, you recieved a class related bonus feat.

 

[librarius_arcana]

I introduced a mechanic that might offer an alternative. It was derived becuase I eliminated XP from my games. I just leveled up the PCs when I saw fit. If a player wanted to multiclass, they suffered the following effects. When they added a second class, they lost the next feat gained from their overall character level as well as one skill point each level gained thereafter. If they added a third class, they lost the next two feats gained from their overal character level and two skill points each level. If they chose a third class they lost the next three feats and three skill points per level. No one dared go to four or more classes.

In addtion, I altered the Favored Class mechanic due to the fact that I was not using XP anymore. Each level you gained in a Favored class rewarded you with an extra Skill Point. Also, when you reach 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level in your Favored Class, you recieved a class related bonus feat.

Thats not a million miles away from something I was playing with,

But I was going to have players have to spend their feat on a related aspect of the class (Arc/Div only here though) one feat in either "Chossen by <insert name here>" for Clerics Rangers and Druids etc, and "Gifted" for all Arcane magic, you can't use magic of anytype without one of these feats (if you already start in one of these class's you get the feat free)

 

[airwalkrr]

I like the idea of delaying feats (and possibly even ability score boosts!) when multiclassing. That is something to ponder. I have a question though, ChrisHaines. How would you deal with the skill point penalty if the character in question had a low intelligence score? Did you maintain the minimum 1 skill point per level rule or could they actually receive 0?

 

[ChrisHaines]

I like the idea of delaying feats (and possibly even ability score boosts!) when multiclassing. That is something to ponder. I have a question though, ChrisHaines. How would you deal with the skill point penalty if the character in question had a low intelligence score? Did you maintain the minimum 1 skill point per level rule or could they actually receive 0?

Yeah, I just put a minimum of 1 Skill Point on the mechanic.

 

[DreamChaser]

I guess I'm confused. Is the vision of this thread that multiclassing is too powerful or too weak?

From your initial points, it seemed as though the system was viewed as usually too weak (for spellcasters and such) and sometimes too strong (fighter, barbarian, ranger, paladin, rogue combos).

One thing I've done in the past to avoid the spellcaster problem is used a Base Caster Level. Wizards, sorcerers, clerics, & druids gain full BCL; bards gain 3/4 BCL, rangers and paladins gain 1/2 BCL. BCL affects your caster level for spell effects and spells per day but not spells known, class abilities, or max spell level . So a 3rd level wizard/3rd level cleric is a 6th level caster with 5 0-level, 3 1st-level, 3 2nd-level, and 2 3rd-level slots per day in each class (before bonuses); however, she can only learn or cast up to 2nd level spells in either class so her 3rd-level spell slots can only be used to power lower level spells.

This not only helps even the playing field between multiclassed spellcasters and multiclassed combat characters but it removes much of the need for the dual spellcaster classes.

DC

 

[RangerWickett]

I believe the view is that spellcasters who multiclass are too weak. The solution to that problem is actually relatively easy.

1. Instead of spell slots, go the psionic-esque route with 'Magic Points.' A 1st level spell costs 1 MP, 2nd costs 3 MP, 3rd costs 5 MP, and so on, up to 17 MP for a 9th level spell. Create a scale from level 1 to 20 that tells how many MP you get at each caster level, based sort of on the sorcerer class, but perhaps with a bit more MP at low level so it's worth dipping in at high level.

2. Convert the spellcasting classes - bard, cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, sorcerer, and wizard. They get different special abilities and different spell lists. Some don't actually get a full caster level progression -- wizard and sorcerer get the fastest caster level progression of +1 per level. Bards, clerics, and druids gets +3 per four levels. Rangers and paladins don't start until 4th level, and even then get only +1 per two levels.

When you multiclass, you add caster level bonus the same way you add base attack bonus. A sorcerer 4/cleric 4 would have a caster level of +7, and would have probably 40 MP. A fighter 7/sorcerer 1 would have a caster level of +1, and only 4 MP.

3. The maximum spell level a character can cast or prepare is based on his character level, not the caster level of a particular class. You can cast 1st level spells at level 1, 2nd at level 3, 3rd at level 5, and so on, up to 9th level spells at level 17. If you're a 10th level fighter/7th level sorcerer, you might only have 40 MP for the whole day, but you could use that to cast a fair number of 3rd level and lower spells, or you could pull off one or two 9th-level spells.

Only single-classed casters will have enough MP to use magic as their primary ability. People who dip into a class for a few levels can still cast spells of the same power level, but not nearly as many. Compare the previous fighter 10/sorcerer 7 (40 MP) with a sorcerer 17 (200 MP).

4. Where things get a little complicated is spells known and casting spells for multiclassed characters.

Things are simplest with sorcerers. Their primary class ability would be to learn 2 spells a level. These could be any spell, so if you take 1 level of sorcerer at high levels, you could pick a high-level spell (but you might only have enough MP to use it once). They can use their MP to cast these spells on the fly.

Bards would work much the same way.

Wizards can put any spell into their spellbooks, and they get 2 free per level of the class. However, they have to prepare the spell, which means spending MP at the beginning of the day to have the spell ready. Copying spells as a wizard would probably require a Spellcraft check, so if you just hop into wizard at high level, you won't be adding many high-level spells to your repetoire.

Clerics and druids I'm still trying to figure out. What I don't want is a sorcerer 16 taking 1 level of cleric and getting access to every cleric spell from 1st to 9th level. True, with cleric and druid spells you would still need to prepare them like wizards, but the versatility would be stunning. Compared to wizards, these classes get slower caster level bonus, but better base attack bonus, saves, hp, and special abilities. So I want to limit their magic somehow.

This would probably require some class reworking. Maybe you can only cast one cleric/druid spell per day for each level you have in that class, but you don't have to prepare the spell (since it's a "miracle"). But that leaves the dilemma of what single-classed clerics do after they've used up all their spells for the day and still have MP.

Ah, spontaneous cure spells and summoning of nature's allies. That sounds fair. Probably a little overpowered, but it's not like clerics and druids weren't already pretty beefy.

4. The maximum spell level a character can cast or prepare is based on his character level, not the caster level of a particular class. You can learn 1st level spells at level 1, 2nd at level 3, 3rd at level 5, and so on, up to 9th level spells at level 17. Thus, a fighter 8/wizard 3 could put a 6th level spell in his spellbook.

 

[airwalkrr]

I guess I'm confused. Is the vision of this thread that multiclassing is too powerful or too weak?

From your initial points, it seemed as though the system was viewed as usually too weak (for spellcasters and such) and sometimes too strong (fighter, barbarian, ranger, paladin, rogue combos).

You've nailed it. My perception is that multiclassing is too beneficial for non-spellcasters and usually too prohibitive for spellcasters (at least without things like practiced spellcaster and prestige classes centered on the concept). A base caster level (not unlike the variant suggested in UA) is not a bad idea and it does address my concern about multiclass spellcasters though it doesn't help much with the others.

 

[airwalkrr]

Perhaps the problem with this thread is that it is really too tricky of a situation to handle without some serious thought.

Here's an idea based on my earlier thoughts on non-associated class levels. Suppose a character becomes a level 5 fighter and then decides to multiclass as a wizard. Since wizard levels would be non-associated for him, he levels up twice during the course of gaining experience from 10,000 xp to 15,000 xp, once at 12,500 xp and again at 15,000 xp. That way, by the time he reached 15,000 xp, he would be a Ftr5/Wiz2. Continuing on this path, he progresses to 21,000 xp and Ftr5/Wiz4. However, to balance the character with other characters in the party, he does not gain hit dice for his wizard levels, and uses the better of his BAB and saving throws, although he still acquires skill points and can spend up to 8 points in each skill (his highest character level plus 3). So he is essentially a still a 5th level character, but with a +2 LA. Now suppose he goes back to leveling up as a fighter. 24,000 xp and 3 levels later he is a Ftr8/Wiz4. He is still getting his hd for his fighter levels. Now he decides he wants some more wizard levels. At 45,000 xp, he will not get the benefit of another wizard level until he reaches 50,000 xp (halfway to his next level). So at 55,000 xp he is a Ftr8/Wiz6. At 66,000 xp he is a Ftr8/Wiz8.

To make this work, unassociated class levels would count as going "outside your class type," and there would be the four classic class types of mage, rogue, warrior, and priest. Also to avoid some of the stacking problems of multiple classes of a similar type, no character could have more than one class of a given type.

How would a system like this work, do you think?