Help me Kill a PC

[Zipster]

I do want to thank everyone so far for their responses, and I also want to address what Empirate has said a bit, as I may not have been entirely clear on my intention.

Yes, I was exaggerating when I said that I don't understand a character sheet, with the intent to say that my understanding of the system is by far complete, especially when compared to someone who has 2nd edition practically memorized. This is not to justify my own ignorance, or excuse me from the burden of it - reading the DMG and familiarizing myself is part of my plan. If I were going to be DMing for the rest of the campaign, perhaps I would feel more inclined to have all the details, but as it is, I know that my own knowledge and experience isn't to the point where I could do the whole campaign, which is why I'm doing more of a stand-alone session. But, perhaps it makes it a little more excusable that I haven't picked up and memorized the DMG yet.

While it does seem petty to some degree, you make it sound like there is no story that I plan on working, no characters I plan on developing, and no hope for the DM's character. This isn't true.

So far in his adventure there has been relatively low risk of threat and death. There have been times when the whole session has been "go into this cave and kill these undead" - and, by cave, I don't mean dungeon.

In a recent adventure, the party's ranger thwarted the DM's own plan of a huge battle because the DM forgot the property of a magic item he gave the player and forgot to account for it's use. This is what I'm trying to avoid, and believe it or not, I'm also trying to do it in a way that makes legitimate sense within the story that I am personally crafting.

As others have suggested, I could kill him in his sleep - but, he would have no chance.

I could send him into a step-and-die trap room, but again, he would have no chance.

I could pit him against one of his world's numerous characters who he has no character sheet for that is capable of one-shotting any single person in the party without even rolling a die. But, again, he would have no chance.

As Danbu suggested, I could fill the room under the psion with explosives, but, again, there is no chance. Believe it or not, I want the DM"s character, and the party to have a chance, and refuse to put them in situations which are doomed to fail because it isn't fair, it isn't consistent, and it isn't fun. This does not mean that I, as the (temp) DM, should make things easy for them and give them guaranteed success, or not craft parts of the adventure which are designed to kill the party if they make a mistake and are not careful in each situation that they encounter.

And, again, within the story-arch I am crafting, the antagonists goals are to humiliate this specific PC for his own arrogance. The Psion received a notice from a foreign kingdom inviting capable people to go adventuring with (this is what drew the party together). Tucked away in this summons was also a threat: "If you plan on fighting me, then bring your funeral arrangements."

A psionic is a highly disciplined individual who has constantly pushed himself to attain power within himself. This particular psionic revels in challenge: he pushes himself to the extreme to further his own ability and power. Now, if said person were to receive a summons as detailed above, it seems likely to me that the psionic would feel that he wouldn't need to bring his own funeral arrangements if he were to make the challenge. And, so he pushes himself to prove it.

Now, the player does not have any magical item that prevents scrying, so the psionic has been watching his behavior and has been able to plan accordingly. Even in the midst of all of this, unless they find a way to prevent him from scrying (which, never has a PC I've played with ever thought a villain was scrying on them) it would make sense that the psionic would be one step ahead of them all the way.

Now, if the antagonist had no intentions to harm, cripple, or maim the PC's in any way, then he wouldn't make a very good antagonist.

In retrospect, the title to this thread is maybe a bit misleading. I, as a person, feel compelled to kill the DM's character because the DM, as a person, has basically challenged me to do it, and I know that other DM's have failed to craft situations which could potentially - and fairly - lead to this characters demise. I have not, as empirate has suggested, determined to kill the DM's character despite any and every attempt of his own; in fact, my original vision has the character surviving - that is, the psionic won't really try to kill the character unless he is pushed, or feels that he is out of control of the situation, at which point, the Psionic - who looks as average as any old Joe - is capable of using "disintegrate" over and over until the player fails a save. Put the two of them in the middle of a very crowded market, and the player would have no clue what is happening.

But, again, I'm actually looking to give a chance to the party instead of cheaply killing them, and I've seen some great ideas in various threads around here, and have seen the creativity of this place and thought that maybe I could get some ideas and inspiration here.

Rumbletiger, believe it or not, I haven't actually considered having the psionic dominate the player. I'm not sure how good his will saves are (from what I recall, pure fighters seem to have some of the best saves as it is), but I suspect his Wisdom is within the 16-17 area. Dominating the mind of the player feels fully in line with what the antagonist would wish to do, and the moment the players see the Ulatharid they should know that such an outcome is possibility, which also gives them a chance. So, thank you for the idea!

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Rumbletiger, believe it or not, I haven't actually considered having the psionic dominate the player. I'm not sure how good his will saves are (from what I recall, pure fighters seem to have some of the best saves as it is), but I suspect his Wisdom is within the 16-17 area. Dominating the mind of the player feels fully in line with what the antagonist would wish to do, and the moment the players see the Ulatharid they should know that such an outcome is possibility, which also gives them a chance. So, thank you for the idea!

Now I'm a pure 3.x guy, I'm not familiar with 2e stats and I've gotten the impression from your original post that you're playing a 2e game. However, I know the 3.5 Fighter has a poor base will save and has little reason to invest in a Wisdom score to boost it, so unless he has magic items to assist in this area, I'd expect a lower Will save. Anyone familiar with 2e can feel free to correct me on this.
My suggestion is motivated by, in pitting the fighter in combat against the rest of the party, there is both a chance that he'll live (But pretty bad odds assuming the rest of the party is competent) and an opportunity to make it fun for everyone. Especially if you let this player control his own dominated character, he'll get to play out his death scene against his fellow players and "Finally get to see what he can really do" in this unique situation. Hopefully this will end up becoming one of those epic stories player talk about when they reminisce, and still get the character out of your hair.

 

[Jacob Marley]

Perhaps, in light of what you wrote in your last post, you would have been better off asking us:

How do you challenge an over-powered party using 2nd Edtion AD&D rules? Here are the PCs stats.
​

And really, it is the PC's stats that are needed if you want us to help you tailor an encounter to challenge him. At best, all we can do is guess as to what the PC can or cannot handle. At worst, we waste a lot time and energy coming up with solutions that won't work.

So, what are we working with?

Also, welcome to ENWorld.

 

[Greenfield]

Let me start by welcoming you to the forum.

Now to address the question... how to word this...

Okay, here goes:

Don't do it, it's a trap!

While this campaign doesn't sound like a pure Monte Haul, it has those overtones. And a DM who runs his own PC in the game? There may be some badly hurt feelings here.

Start with this: Lose the fixation over the one PC. You're desire to kill the PC is as bad as his desire to "prove" himself by running it. When a DM has it in for a particular player's character, it never ends well.

Your bad guy may have heard of the PC, but probably in the context of the team he leads. He should be preparing for the team, not the single PC.

Now, to prepare for the damage output of the ranger, consider a simple Stone Skin spell. In 1st/2nd Ed it nullified a certain number of attacks, no matter how much damage they did. That's a good way to buy him some time.

Don't dominate the monster with Psionics. Use a Cursed magic item for the task. When the party wins, which the bad guy expects them to do, they'll loot the body.

So the party wins the "big battle" (and make it a fight to remember), congratulate them and hand out the spoils of victory. Let them feel like they've accomplished something, like they've earned the congratulations you're giving them.

Next will come the big after-battle party, when the goodies get Identified and divvied up.

So, who ends up with that ever so delightful item? If it's an Intelligent item that can control someone, it can seize the person who tries to Identify it. (Remember, you have to hold or wear an item as it would normally be held or worn in order to cast Identify on it, so it's guaranteed to be triggered.) If it finds its new toy less than satisfying, it can direct the Identifying Magic User to hand the item to the most powerful character available.

And just who would that be? Three guesses...

That behavior, by the way, is right out of the DMG's section on powerful, intelligent items.

And while the newly owned uber-character dukes it out with his former companions, your real bad guy gets to sit back and laugh. He has a front row seat to the show, but is never in any danger at all because the PCs never have to know that he's pulling the strings. They won't attack him, and even if they did it won't change anything.

Now this approach will tend to decimate the group as a whole, which was the real bad guy's plan all along, and may or may not kill the lead PC.

But if you want to be really ugly, include a Scroll of Disjunction in the loot. (I think they had that in 1st/2nd Ed) Let the party Magic User realize the "mistake" you made and seize upon it, casting the spell that will disenchant the intelligent item and free their friend. And oh yeah, it will also disenchant every other piece of overly neat gear he's carrying, a move that will drop him back to more mortal power levels.

Raising their friend from the dead is fairly possible. Replacing all his gear? And the gear of anyone else in the area when it goes off? Now that's actually a fate worse than death.

So there's your triple whammy. It doesn't reek of a DM on a vendetta against a particular PC, but it does do the job. (Even if it does reek of passive-aggressive sneakiness.)

 

[krupintupple]

Perhaps its that I've encountered this before, but I would not recommend the path that you're interested in. To be frank, if you are this uncomfortable with the DM's PC, simply tell him that it's not appropriate for your campaign - whether due to an unbalancing power level, campaign fit, lack of realism, etc. - in and open, and honest manner, and then ask him to roll up another character. You don't have to be mean, or sneaky about this, but if you're firm and forthright, they will likely understand and there will be a minimum of hard feelings.

Egos will be minorly bruised, yes, but a lot less than if he sees his favoured, overpowered, and carefully build PC killed off; doubly so if, say, at the last minute, he comes up with an amazing scheme to save his bacon as players are wont to do, but then dies anyhow, as it becomes apparent that you had it in for his character. Considering how upset people can get even if their character dies because of sheer accident, or because of no direct fault, if it seems that you're railroading, people will understandably get upset.

However, if people are really married to their character concepts, may I suggest a "prequel," of sorts? They still get to play their current characters, except their levels, treasure, magic, etc. is rolled back to a level far earlier, effectively allowing them to play an "alternate timeline" of someone they care about, but also pruning previous and campaign-ruining excess.

 

[Empirate]

Zipster, after your last post, your PoV makes a little more sense to me, and I regret my rather aggressive tone from before. However, I think Greenfield is on the right track with his opening remark: don't do it, it's a trap! (the rest of his suggestions is his usual awesome, as well, unfortunately can't XP right now).
Whenever I see a post starting with "help me kill a PC" or "how to make so they all die horribly" or "suggestions for TPK?" or something like that, I facepalm so hard it hurts. Really, while one can, maybe, under certain circumstances, make a story work that revolves around a powerful NPC having it in for the PCs (or just one of them), that's just not the norm. Usually, such a story will end in hurt feelings all around.

What I'd suggest is a clean slate: everybody rolls up new characters, you hand out some starting equipment, welcome back to the land of mere mortal adventurers! It's always hard (and IME unfulfilling) to pick up the pieces where someone else left off. As it is also hard for a former DM to shut up about how stuff is supposed to work when he planted the seeds (magic items he handed out, plotlines he laid out etc.). Better for all concerned to just drop the idea of "payback's a bitch", and just start afresh.

 

[was]

--put them on a boat..have something big attack...monster dies but ship sinks...everybody into the drink..armor pulls him down...drowning damage/crushing depth damage etc..have the environment kill him

 

[delchrys]

others have already posted varying forms of my initial thoughts (monte haul problem, interpersonal issues, potential insecurity/psyche issues, broken dynamic, etc.), so i'll skip those and go straight to some (hopefully) creative suggestions:

first, your mastermind fellow isn't alone, right? he can hire people (old-fashioned way) or dominate people (psionic way) to get minions who are not 'minions' in the 4E sense of the word, but are full-on NPCs in their own right. with that in mind...

1) he obtains the services of an assassin who is a skilled poisoner. a dart, a mug of ale at a tavern, a bit of cloth coated with contact poison (effect occurs upon touch) where the poison is a unique poison (not found in DM guide) that permanently lowers ability scores by however much you please.

2) an amnesia-like effect that causes the character to regress, forget the last few years, many skills, levels, etc.

3) cursed magical items of nearly-artifact status that cause debilitating effects that are nearly impossible to undo.

4) an aging effect that makes him an old man and lowers his stats accordingly (lower str, dex, and con, while not giving the aging bonuses to intelligence and wisdom, since those only come with living that many years)

5) amped up rust monsters to destroy his pet magic weapons/armor

6) take something his character loves and hurt it, break it, or destroy it. or better yet, threaten it (hostage, etc) and let it lead our friendly DM-turned-overpowered-PC into a bad trap that triggers one or more of the things in this very list to happen

7) lots of stoneskin on enemies--good luck being a fighter trying to take out enemies who are flying, with active stoneskin, who can teleport away once they get close to running out of stoneskin. PS--protection from normal missiles (spell) is key to preventing the "i throw a handful of large pebbles at him, effectively ending his stoneskin in 1-2 rounds" effect.

8) an enemy caster (or casters) casts blindness and then deafness on him. then other enemies attack. blindfighting is worthless if you're deaf, too.

9) falling long distances. there's a rule (i believe) in 2E that any time a character takes 50 or more points of damage from one source at one time, he must make a system shock roll to not die

10) a high-level illusionist. well, played, the character will never think to "disbelieve" the illusion and will be able to be rendered unconscious as a result of such illusory damage. liberties can then be taken with the unconscious body.

11) if you want to be totally inappropriate and humiliate him but leave him alive, do a bunch of the debilitating stuff listed here (rust monster his best magical items, age him into feebleness, give him some amnesia and the attendant level losses, poison him with a poison that causes more stat losses or slows his attacks so he gets less attacks per round, and then get him unconscious via illusions or something else), and then have him get gang raped by a tribe of hill giants.

if this list doesn't do it for you, something is even more broken in that campaign than has already been identified in this thread.

 

[hopeless]

A problem party or rather a problem character...

There are a number of ways to deal with this.
Some have already been mentioned but how much information do you know about this PC and his party?

Me I'd ask for copies of all of their characters so you can keep your own copy for the purposes of insuring you haven't missed anything so anything not listed on your copy they can't have since if it isn't listed its either lost, stolen or unavailable until you have the relevant details which means a week or another session before it can be called upon or better yet explained.

Once you have these copies make up new character but clad in normal armour and equipment perhaps including a few items suitable for characters of their level and then pass the characters over with no name on these sheets explaining this is a prelude to the adventure you have planned so they have some idea of the backdrop for the "real" game.

These characters have awakened with no memory of each other and evidence suggests they have shared a campsite foe some reason and all seems fine until they reach the nearest settlement.

They learn a powerful group of adventurers' are in the area and they're recruited to find them and get their aid against a fearsome enemy who apparently dominates any of the adversaries sent against him but its hope this group will be able to turn the tide.

Ask the former dm for the most likely place his character would be contacted and use that as the site for where this group tries to find "his" party but when they reach the contact place one of their number is identified as the hero revealing that the party had been sent against this foe but was dominated and subsequently escaped their new nemesis's control by unknown means that apparently cost them all memory of what had happened right up to the point where they first met.

Their equipment will eventually be revealed as having been taken by their nemesis whilst they were preparing them for full domination and what they have was recovered during their escape which involved passing a glyph bearing a symbol of insanity which was designed to render any escapee amnesiatic to preserve the secrets of their nemesis.

NOW they start the real game where they recover their memories right up until they were approached and recruited the first time but have no idea what happened after that and you have a fearsome nemesis and an adventure that should prove all the more fulfilling should they get over the fact they've lost most of the stuff that you consider overpowered.

You could even have them start playing the character of another player until they reach the settlement and realise who they're actually running so they could have the option of swapping the character for their old one or stick with their new character and perhaps throw in that their nemesis didn't just try to permanently dominate them but also swapped their minds so the character stats are changed enough to avoid easy realisation and start them off as 1st level since they are unknowingly multi-classing well in some cases but are actually higher level than they realise something they won't figure out until they go to recruit themselves!

The reason the settlement they reach don't know who they are is because they don't know one of their messengers actually got through and have no idea these are the heroes they've heard about.

A bit of a railroad but one that should level the playing field and give your players something worth pursuing if they're really that interested in a suitable challenge.

I was thinking illithid being involved so that they were actually mind blasted and perhaps polymorphed to secure them the first time round but having a psion as their figurehead should make things more interesting if you want to keep their real enemy a secret a little while longer.

 

[Xakk]

Asking the player(I was confused about what was going on till I reread the post) to archive his character is the advised way to go about removing him. You could even craft some scenario together in game that removes him from play. As he was the DM before and is apparently good with the numbers by your own admission, he'd probably be able to come up with something that would throw a curve at the party; Especially considering he's been up against them till now already.
That said, there are a number of cases in which it might not work, more likely in this case. He could refuse, quit the game, or just come back with another nightmare character. The problem is these are also likely if you blatantly slay his character.
Let us consider two solutions that are a bit extreme, but ultimately the most advantageous to you as a DM:
His character chooses death, or crippling disability, to save the party.
OR (and possibly literally or, depending on the situation)
Total Party Kill
I can hear jaws bouncing off desks with that last one. But you said yourself that the party is a bit overpowered for their level. Killing them off and spinning some way for another group of adventurers to become embroiled in their previous adventures (last will and testament, one member escapes, friends of the party, etc) could balance things more the way you like it. Further, if most or all of the party is killed so the EXDMPC can keep his life and limb, perhaps at this stage you might have a vengeance triangle, which are incredibly fun to play out.

Here's a scenario I came up with on the spot:
The party encounter their nemesis as hostage of another enemy, one with a fondness for poisons/disease that do permanent ability damage if not saved against, with a method of delivering them that can't easily be fought off. I'm thinking here of swarms, but don't know if there are any venomous ones that do permanent score damage. The point here, is that the fighter will likely be the only one with enough strength/constitution/whatever to hold them for long enough for the rest of the party to escape.
Of course, this could be enforced when the fighter becomes the target for all such attacks, and you drop a line like "Some of them look at you hungrily between attacking Yournamehere, and you know you're next on the menu." Or the fighter will turn tail like a scared rabbit, but be unable to forestall his, or in that case, anyone's demise. TPK, and they begin again with something more reasonable.
Thereupon, with the EXDMPC brought very low with a new ability score in the low single digits, the Psion calls off his captor, or slays him outright, so the players know they were duped. At this point you can easily hold the gimped PC hostage till the rest of the party rescues him like a princess in a tower, that's both eliminating and humiliating enough.
But I would take it a step further. I know there are psionic powers that swap minds in 3.x, I'm sure there's something like it in 2e. Have the gimp body switched for something you think is poetically just (I would here use a surpassingly physically endowed body - of the opposite gender. Or a humanoid aberration. Or both), and then for the kick in the pants, threaten to return him to his original crippled shell if he refuses to turn in his friends and all their amassed wealth (the nemesis does this to prove the PC of poor character). At this point the player is actively avoiding playing their original PC as designed, keeping only his mental abilities, and the EXDMPC as it was is no longer a concern. If they're so attached to their body they demand it back immediately, bribe them with the offer of restoring their original body as the price for betrayal (an offer which was never sincere, as the enemy will proceed to slay said body immediately upon delivery). This puts the party back in the same dungeon, in the same room, but with a different end to the quest: fighting the psionic nemesis and possibly the mindswitched EXDMPC.

Got a little wordy there. Point is, as a DM, and especially in this case, you want to avoid inavoidable situations, because players are likely to call foul on them. What you do, is narrow down the players' choices to a set you can predict, and plan the consequences of each (but be prepared to reward/punish 'none of the above' thinking). Of course this applies more to when you need to enforce something than in usual play. Also, you should probably become familiar with the game mechanics, as your players likely are.