D&D 5E Help My Group Tactics and Planning

[Dan Chernozub]

Intro:
After a dozen years off DnD, I came back to DM 5e.
I'm loving it, my players are enjoying the story and the game.

However, they have created unoptimized characters and are feeling sub par, especially compared to another group that is going through the same homebrew campaign of mine.

Most of the PCs have the oWoD background, so were looking mostly at the story, not the stats, at character creation and lacked experience even if they tried to optimize.

Problem:
After the last game, the party came to me for advice on how to make themselves more efficient. Both PCs and I feel that they are having a harder time than they should in most encounters.

I'm quite new to 5e, so I'm asking this forum to help.

There were a couple of early deaths in the party. Now they have 3 level 3 characters and a level 2 one.

I will provide details that I feel important, but feel free to ask for more - I very well might be quite off on this.

Party composition:

We were using 4d6dl in a row, best of three, as a method for stat generation.

1. Arcane Trickster [3]. Human. 11/16/13/14/13/15. Skilled Feat. +1 Silent Dagger (Makes no sound when attacking), Sending Stones. Spells - Sleep/Colour Spray.

2. Moon Druid [3]. Human. 12/12/16/12/16/15. Alert Feat. +1 Shield (properties undiscovered yet).

3. Fiend Bladelock [3]. Half-Orc. 17/11/11/14/8/16. Invocations: Fiendish Vigor, Repelling Blast. Spells - Arms of Hadar, Unseen Servant, Scorching Ray, Darkness. Berserker Greataxe (cursed), Lucky Charm (re-roll 1st failed save/day).

4. Life Cleric [2]. Human. 16/11/16/10/16/12. War Caster Feat. +1 Shield (Activates Silence when hit by an enemy attack).

The opposition that party is facing is highly varied. Indoors/outdoors combats. I can go into more detail if needed.

The party can't figure out what spells to prepare, how to engage enemies and how to level up. They have some cash to spend but are away from the base of operations right now.

Any and all input is welcome. Feel free to ask any questions.

 

[Arilyn]

If they are new to game you should be able to help with spell choice, levelling up, etc. The characters seem fine, not sub par at all. Two deaths early in game with new players may not have been the best idea. Seems like biggest problem is that everyone needs more time to get used to game, so maybe ease up on the danger?

 

[Dan Chernozub]

If they are new to game you should be able to help with spell choice, levelling up, etc. The characters seem fine, not sub par at all. Two deaths early in game with new players may not have been the best idea. Seems like biggest problem is that everyone needs more time to get used to game, so maybe ease up on the danger?

I'm not confident enough to take the responsibility - I'm new to 5e, too.

The first death was a screw up by the team (they hoped he would stabilize without help) and the second was an accident (1/20)^2 chance to die.

I'm not threatening the group too much, but even with the DMG medium encounters, they have some trouble.

 

[bid]

Rogue. Skilled feat is really bad. How can 7 skills not be enough? Mobile (or lucky) would help to stay alive. Sleep is losing its potency against higher HD.

Druid seems fine. Barkskin in bear form. Cast goodberry before bed I hope.

Bladelock. AC12 and Con11, on a melee too? At least get armor of shadows and moderately armored asap, but Con stays bad until level 8...
Restart fighter 1 / bladelock 2 for heavy armor and defense style. Paladin 2 / bladelock 1 also works if you want utility slots. This way you Con13 around level 5.
AoA is starting to be better than fiendish vigor, repelling blast doesn't work well in melee range but I see the goal. Short-term utilities such as unseen servant don't work well when you only have 2 slots. Con is really low for a melee character.

Cleric. Concentrate on bless/aid, use spiritual weapon, guidance and mending.


Before level 3, you have so few hp that going down happens a lot. The only true weakness is not having Con14, which I feel is mandatory for most classes.

 

[Arilyn]

I'm not confident enough to take the responsibility - I'm new to 5e, too.

The first death was a screw up by the team (they hoped he would stabilize without help) and the second was an accident (1/20)^2 chance to die.

I'm not threatening the group too much, but even with the DMG medium encounters, they have some trouble.

Okay, if you are feeling unsure, better do more homework! How about if everyone reads rules, and help each other out, with the nitty gritty of rules. You have experience with older DnD, so catch up on new edition shouldn't be hard. Okay to fudge some rolls until everyone gets into swing of things.

 

[Ancalagon]

Well, it's hard to say but a few advice:

Where is the tank here? There doesn't appear to be any highly resilient person who can take the front line. As mentioned, that bladelock has a glass jaw.

Focus fire: Are they spreading their damage around or concentrating on one-2 foes at a time?

Divide and conquer: Use spells (entangle?) the terrain, whatever to divide the foes. While half the enemies are dealing with whatever is stopping them from taking part in the battle, kill the other half.

 

[Ancalagon]

Also, why is everyone a spellcaster? I would recommend replacing the cleric with a paladin *or* the druid with a barbarian (but with outlander as a background and survival as a skill, that way the party still has a nature expert).

That being said, what is important is that people have fun with their characters, this is more important than "perfect" party composition.

Lastly, since you are new to 5e... what are the characters backgrounds? You know that backgrounds aren't just a "role-playing thing" but provide several skills to the character right? I'm asking because one of my players when switching to 5e missed them too...

 

[Dan Chernozub]

Rogue. Skilled feat is really bad. How can 7 skills not be enough? Mobile (or lucky) would help to stay alive. Sleep is losing its potency against higher HD.

Druid seems fine. Barkskin in bear form. Cast goodberry before bed I hope.

Bladelock. AC12 and Con11, on a melee too? At least get armor of shadows and moderately armored asap, but Con stays bad until level 8...
Restart fighter 1 / bladelock 2 for heavy armor and defense style. Paladin 2 / bladelock 1 also works if you want utility slots. This way you Con13 around level 5.
AoA is starting to be better than fiendish vigor, repelling blast doesn't work well in melee range but I see the goal. Short-term utilities such as unseen servant don't work well when you only have 2 slots. Con is really low for a melee character.

Cleric. Concentrate on bless/aid, use spiritual weapon, guidance and mending.


Before level 3, you have so few hp that going down happens a lot. The only true weakness is not having Con14, which I feel is mandatory for most classes.

Can't really change the Feats already taken or take Con with the roll in a row.

Warlock is taking Med Armor lvl4. And with some luck they can pick up a magical breastplate from one of the BBEG.

More advice on the further advancement of Bladelock (and others) is welcome.

Well, it's hard to say but a few advice:

Where is the tank here? There doesn't appear to be any highly resilient person who can take the front line. As mentioned, that bladelock has a glass jaw.

Focus fire: Are they spreading their damage around or concentrating on one-2 foes at a time?

Divide and conquer: Use spells (entangle?) the terrain, whatever to divide the foes. While half the enemies are dealing with whatever is stopping them from taking part in the battle, kill the other half.

Lack of Tank is an issue. Advance from both sides (PC/DM) is welcome. I would prefer them to fix it themselves, without my help though.

They are smart enough, to focus fire most of the time.

Advice on battelfield control are welcome, this is the part that they might lack in. With my limited expierence, if I were joining this party, I would try to roll a wizard to better manipulate the battlefield.

I might be using flying enemies too much, but what I "fear" is when they face intelligent enemies with NPC spellcasters in the group.

Also, why is everyone a spellcaster? I would recommend replacing the cleric with a paladin *or* the druid with a barbarian (but with outlander as a background and survival as a skill, that way the party still has a nature expert).

That being said, what is important is that people have fun with their characters, this is more important than "perfect" party composition.

Lastly, since you are new to 5e... what are the characters backgrounds? You know that backgrounds aren't just a "role-playing thing" but provide several skills to the character right? I'm asking because one of my players when switching to 5e missed them too...

Not quite possible to painlessly replace a character in my game (same as with Feats/stats).

We are having fun, the question is how to play the current party composition better.

Cleric/Acolyte/Insight-Nature-Religion-Persuasion-Stealth
Rouge/Urchin/not going to list all the skills he has - most of them he has
Druid/Executioner (custom background)/Insight-Nature-Perception-Persuasion-Stealth
Warlock/Son a Withch (custom background)/Arcana-Deception-History-Intimidation-Nature

As you've correctly noted, they lack a tank, and are unclear about the other roles. This makes planning the battles hard, and not having a solid plan doesn't end well for PCs most of the time.

 

[Arilyn]

Can't really change the Feats already taken or take Con with the roll in a row.

Warlock is taking Med Armor lvl4. And with some luck they can pick up a magical breastplate from one of the BBEG.

More advice on the further advancement of Bladelock (and others) is welcome.



Lack of Tank is an issue. Advance from both sides (PC/DM) is welcome. I would prefer them to fix it themselves, without my help though.

They are smart enough, to focus fire most of the time.

Advice on battelfield control are welcome, this is the part that they might lack in. With my limited expierence, if I were joining this party, I would try to roll a wizard to better manipulate the battlefield.

I might be using flying enemies too much, but what I "fear" is when they face intelligent enemies with NPC spellcasters in the group.


Not quite possible to painlessly replace a character in my game (same as with Feats/stats).

We are having fun, the question is how to play the current party composition better.

Cleric/Acolyte/Insight-Nature-Religion-Persuasion-Stealth
Rouge/Urchin/not going to list all the skills he has - most of them he has
Druid/Executioner (custom background)/Insight-Nature-Perception-Persuasion-Stealth
Warlock/Son a Withch (custom background)/Arcana-Deception-History-Intimidation-Nature

As you've correctly noted, they lack a tank, and are unclear about the other roles. This makes planning the battles hard, and not having a solid plan doesn't end well for PCs most of the time.

This seems like there may be a disconnect between how you approach the game and how the players approach it. If they are making the characters the way they want without thinking about roles, and optimizing choices, they are probably looking at it as more of a role playing or adventure game, and you should adapt accordingly. If they are making a lot of judgement errors they just need experience, and as I mentioned before, maybe you need to ease up on the danger until they get the hang of things. If they really do want to play more min/maxy, then let them make a new group and check out threads on optimizing characters, and follow others' advice here.

 

[BoldItalic]

I think part of the problem stems from your decision to roll stats in-a-row. That's not one of the standard methods in 5e and although it can lead to interesting characters that are a challenge to play, I wouldn't recommend it for beginners. It doesn't give the player enough control over the kind of character they get to play and that can lead to a certain amount of detachment, bewilderment and dissatisfaction, particularly if the whole party is generated that way. But that's water under the bridge now. If another PC dies and a new one is generated, though, I'd recommend you use one of the two methods in the 5e PHB; choose a class concept first and assign the stats appropriately.

Incidentally, in organised play (Adventurers League) it is legitimate for players to rebuild their characters completely between sessions up until 5th level. Not allowing them to do that is a bit harsh, particularly as you have imposed the stats-in-a-row rule that puts them on the back foot already. Consider relaxing a bit on that. If the way you are running the game is leading to dissatisfaction, it's you that must change something about the game; the players can't do it for you.

For the time being, though, it sounds as if tactics and planning are the problem, not the actual make-up of the characters. You can help by giving them encounters in which the monsters demonstrate tactics that the players might use next time. Let them win an easy encounter where the monsters use a doorway to achieve bottlenecking - that might give them the idea of using bottlenecking themselves in another encounter, particularly if you talk about it afterwards. Give them an encounter where the monsters exploit stealth, talk about it afterwards and get the players to think about how they can use stealth themselves. Make sure everyone has read the rules about Stealth and Hiding in the PHB!