Help on a Kensai build

[uzagi_akimbo]

In an ongoing FR-campaign of a friend, one of the the two fighter characters has died (due to a player move abroad ), and I have been asked to fill the void. While happy to join (it's a nice group I used to play with before ), I now have a problem with the role I am supposed to play - that of the competitive high-level fighter, which is about as opposed to my normal mages, support clerics and other chars as can be.

Guess I might just need some help with building something truly wicked

Here is the basic setup :
Stats : 17 16 15 14 13 12 - spread as desired, +3 points from 4th, 8th and 12th level
Char level 14
Any non-evil race from FR setting, ECL +1 races are treated as ECL+0 (yikes )
FR pantheon
no psionics; due to certain campaign specific conditions, arcane magic is not recommended at the moment
otherwise anything from a WotC book,
Equipment is to be negotiated with the GM, but nothing really high powered, and the GM is VERY leery of Stat boost item (consider them at about x5 the price, the group is currently having +2 stuff at best for Stats ), so a build shouldn't rely on anything special to work


the party has :
Wizard-specialist Conjurer (good with nukes, too )
Cleric with anti-undead focus
Thief-ShadowLord
Ranger-Windwalker (Shaundakul PrC) who is basically the light and mobile infantry )

My initial reaction was going human w. heavy armour, shield and board, cleric ( of war ) plus fighter, and at least 6 levels of Kensai (this is rather non-negotiable, for various reasons ).
As feats : Combat Expertise, Blooded (FR-regional as human bonus feat), WF-XYZ (from cleric war domain ), Power Attack, Imp Sunder , Cleave, Combat Brute, Practised Spellcaster and possibly Divine Vigour ( for some combat mobility and temp HP ).
I guess this can be improved on - any suggestions ?

 

[Darklone]

Divine Might ?

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Can't recall exactly what you needed to qualify for Kensai. But if it works:

I'd drop the cleric levels in favour of paladin:

In fact, I'd consider a high charisma Aasimar Paladin 4:Fighter 4:Kensai 6...

Divine Vigor, Divine Might and Charisma bonus to saves is going to be pretty darned nasty. Immunity to disease and Fear never hurt anyone.

You'll get the paladin spellcasting ability - albeit only 1 level - enough that you can use spell completion items. Which is nice.

The Code of conduct for the Kensai and Paladin could be interesting together.

See, if you can get your GM to let you have a Holy Avenger as your Kensai weapon. That's not as silly as it sounds - It's price is very close to that of a +8 weapon, so only a couple more levels of Kensai? At your level you could start with a +4 holy cold iron longsword - simply add the rest of the powers as you progress...

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Divine Might ?

Actually I considered putting a 12 into Charisma, so the bonus from Divine Might would be a whopping +1..... hmmm. Probably one of the builds where Divine Might does not fly all that well.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Can't recall exactly what you needed to qualify for Kensai. But if it works:

I'd drop the cleric levels in favour of paladin:

In fact, I'd consider a high charisma Aasimar Paladin 4:Fighter 4:Kensai 6...

Divine Vigor, Divine Might and Charisma bonus to saves is going to be pretty darned nasty. Immunity to disease and Fear never hurt anyone.

You'll get the paladin spellcasting ability - albeit only 1 level - enough that you can use spell completion items. Which is nice.

The Code of conduct for the Kensai and Paladin could be interesting together.

See, if you can get your GM to let you have a Holy Avenger as your Kensai weapon. That's not as silly as it sounds - It's price is very close to that of a +8 weapon, so only a couple more levels of Kensai? At your level you could start with a +4 holy cold iron longsword - simply add the rest of the powers as you progress...

Requirements for Kensai
Weapon Focus XYZ (must be the Kensai weapon though)
Combat Expertise (so I need Int 13 )
5 ranks in Concentration, Diplomacy and Ride each (these might be hard to do on a Paladin/Fighrter build's low skill points )

As for saves - Kensai has will-save as strong save, together with the boost from Fighter and Cleric I should be rather peachy in this department, and the Kensai can substitute a Concentration roll for his usually weak Reflex save - so I was oggling the "Disciplined" Feat (from FR-PG) - which would hand me a +2 bonus to Will save and Reflex saves in one swoop, and dies in nicely with a dedicated to excellence lawful warrior-type.

I would prefer Cleric over Paladin due to better spellcasting (hence some fall-back healing should the cleric get disabled ), access to the War domain (for the free Weapon Focus feat ) or Fate (Dodge-ability), Travel (Freedom of movement-SQ) etc. Of course, Divine Favour at 10the level (with practised spellcaster ) can be nifty, too. The 3rd level cleric spell "Baneblade" is too nice to pass up easily, either.
And I just cannot spare a high score for Charisma which would get better mileage out of the Paladin's aura.
Planning on : Str 17 Dex 14 Con 15 Wis 16 Int 13 and Cha 12, Adding +2 to Str from stat increases and +1 to Con, which, gives me access to the required feats, some good bonus HP and useful offensive power. May delay the Con boost in favour of a Str increase to 20 until 16th, though

As for the Holy Avenger - I was planning on a adamantine +3, holy and keen balde for starters, so we have a similar idea there. Just why would you pick cold-iron ?

What I _do_ need is an increase to overall damage-output or a combo permitting me to disable opponents by reliably tripping them etc. - something in the vein of "High Sword-Low Axe" style - too bad I will proably not have the Dex to go two-weapon fighting. Any ideas ?

 

[Darklone]

Actually I considered putting a 12 into Charisma, so the bonus from Divine Might would be a whopping +1..... hmmm. Probably one of the builds where Divine Might does not fly all that well.

Looks like I'm confusing some things, but I thought the Kensai had some CHA-dependant abilities...

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I only suggested Paladin from my recent experiences - playing at 12th level as a fighter... something fairly new to me. You live and die by your base attack bonus. Cleric does put a hit into that, which is more painful than it initially seems, in my opinion - a weapon focus feat for every point lost, as it were? Not to mention the extra attacks. You'll already be losing some from the Kensai (Cleric BAB progression?), so any more would be bad!

Especially given that it will be hard to boost your strength with items (X5 cost?) it will really make a lot of difference?


I'd also say your saves can never be too high. The immunity to fear is really nice as well - loads of monsters cause fear and ignoring that is useful! Forgot about the concentration ability - that's really cool.


At this level, even with practiced spellcaster, your overall caster level will be very low - any kind of dispel effect from an apt. CR caster is likely to drop any buffs you have cast? I think you'd need to take the feat 2 or 3 times to stop that - gets very expensive!

With 1 level of a spellcasting class, you can use spell completion items - which is quite enough for extra healing between fights. Cleric would definitely give you a better selection than Paladin. Could be really useful if your cleric goes down, but the wizard may be able to weather any emergencies, if they know Limited Wish?

I was thinking Aasimar as you get the +1 LA 'for free' - lose 1 feat and gain +2 to wis/chr and a load of useful minor abilities? If you switch then switch the Chr and Wis stats from your build you get 14 Wis and 18 Chr - that starts making the Divine Might look rather more impressive! (and saves if a paladin) With a 13 int you should be fine to meet those skill prequisites - all of which are on the paladin list... although fighter/cleric gives you them all as well.


I went for Cold Iron as that's what a Holy Avenger is made out of - figured next Kensai level makes it a +5 Cold Iron Holy sword (same as the avenger)... then try asking for the SR as the next level ability.


If you want to do more damage, you could consider going for a 2 handed weapon and an animated shield... Although I have a funny inkling your GM might not like that very much - I'm not that keen on it myself and I run stuff mostly 'by the book' game.

You could get a buckler instead of a shield. Then take a 2h grip on your sword to do big power attacks.

There's a feat called Resounding Blow (in complete warrior, Book of Exalted deeds?) - think it cowers opponents that you hit - could be what you are looking for.

Given the powerful magic weapon you've got, Sunder might be the way to go - especially if you have an adamantine sword?

Sorry about the rambling. Brain a bit busy today...

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

I only suggested Paladin from my recent experiences - playing at 12th level as a fighter... something fairly new to me. You live and die by your base attack bonus. Cleric does put a hit into that, which is more painful than it initially seems, in my opinion - a weapon focus feat for every point lost, as it were? Not to mention the extra attacks. You'll already be losing some from the Kensai (Cleric BAB progression?), so any more would be bad!

- snip -

I'd also say your saves can never be too high. The immunity to fear is really nice as well - loads of monsters cause fear and ignoring that is useful! Forgot about the concentration ability - that's really cool.

The Will Save (and a trusty resistance item, plus possibly the Disciplined Feat ) should be adequate to save me from most fear (and other mental ) effects (the total bonus should be around +18 ), and if I can get away with taking the blooded feat should see me save from any shaken effects that make it through.

There's a feat called Resounding Blow (in complete warrior, Book of Exalted deeds?) - think it cowers opponents that you hit - could be what you are looking for.

Nice (it's in BoED) , didn't see that before, but it might really be a good deal at the current level, especially with its rather easy prequisites. Of course, that might be another reason to take an adequate Charisma - makes it more effective. Where do I find the rules on the precise effects of Cowering, though ?

Given the powerful magic weapon you've got, Sunder might be the way to go - especially if you have an adamantine sword?

That's part of the plan - also because I was considering to take "Combat Brute" which lets me strike the opponent with the smae strike as a successful sunder. Of course, a high damage yield on every strike will be needed for that.

If you want to do more damage, you could consider going for a 2 handed weapon and an animated shield... Although I have a funny inkling your GM might not like that very much - I'm not that keen on it myself and I run stuff mostly 'by the book' game.

Yep, I guess it would send him into fits (myself as well ), being rather cheesy. And of course, it relies on having an animated shield. The buckler may be worth considering.

At this level, even with practiced spellcaster, your overall caster level will be very low - any kind of dispel effect from an apt. CR caster is likely to drop any buffs you have cast? I think you'd need to take the feat 2 or 3 times to stop that - gets very expensive!

Was considering Practised Spellcaster mostly for the increased durations and better yield from stuff like Divine Favour, Shield of Faith, full level bonus on cure moderate and such. etc.. And of course, there is the combat heavy cleric using similar tactics, so someone might have to dispel both of us. Caster level 10 is usually get enough to last through a fight.

I was thinking Aasimar as you get the +1 LA 'for free' - lose 1 feat and gain +2 to wis/chr and a load of useful minor abilities? If you switch then switch the Chr and Wis stats from your build you get 14 Wis and 18 Chr - that starts making the Divine Might look rather more impressive! (and saves if a paladin) With a 13 int you should be fine to meet those skill prequisites - all of which are on the paladin list... although fighter/cleric gives you them all as well.

Yep, an Aasimar looks tempting, especially if I should go for fullplate, then I could lower Dex to 12, and have Cha 16 and Wis 18 (or vise versa ). What keeps me off the Aasimar is the pref. class : paladin (which I do not know if the GM will allow the Kensai as a "possible" PrC for - otherwise I loose all the Paladin powers anyway ) and the fact that there already is an Aasimar PC in that campaign, and I consider them just slightly overdone. And of course the extra human skill point does come in handy if I also need Intimidate at any reasonable level.

Atm, am leaning toward an Kelemvorite or Tyr-an cleric (possible Paladin), with the dark horse being the Red Knight (war and planning then, not shabby either ) , and building from there. While Kelemvor does not have the "War" domain, getting access to "Fate" and "Travel" is certainly nothing to laugh at. And a bastard sword would tie in nicely with the buckler approach... Maybe I could balance Fighter and Cleric at 4 levels each and take Weapon spec, but that would mean loosing a bunch of spells.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Cowering: The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. A cowering character takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class and loses her Dexterity bonus (if any).

Just like stunned, except they don't drop whatever they were holding... Still, it's nasty.


I'm quite with you on the animated shields though - think they really are a bit too good. As well as funny looking. Buckler and bastard sword strikes me as much more sensible.


I can see why you wouldn't want to double up on Aasimar... unless you're related to them?

Might be worth having a look around and seeing what else is out there. One day I want to play a Hobgoblin - +1 LA, organised, lawful. Who knows?

Might even be worth a monster hit dice or two if you find something appealing enough. Depends what 'floats' in your group.


Both gods sound good!


I'd seriously think about the cleric. 6 levels will set you back 2 BAB - which I think you'll notice:

Fighter 2: Cleric 6: Kensai 6 you'll be at +10/+5.
Fighting Type(s) 8: Kensai 6 - +12/+7/+2

Amazing how much difference that can make? Extra 'throwaway' attack and a +10% chance to hit?

I'd discuss it with the group you've got, but you may well be able to get most of boosts from buffs your wizard and cleric can cast? Either that, or a well chosen selection of items and scrolls?

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Just like stunned, except they don't drop whatever they were holding... Still, it's nasty.

Where does the SRD take the quote from ? Would like to have the book in hand, if the GM asks about it, simply aquestion of psychology


I'm quite with you on the animated shields though - think they really are a bit too good. As well as funny looking. Buckler and bastard sword strikes me as much more sensible.

I can see why you wouldn't want to double up on Aasimar... unless you're related to them?

Might be worth having a look around and seeing what else is out there. One day I want to play a Hobgoblin - +1 LA, organised, lawful. Who knows?

Hmm , needs to be something recognisably good, and nothing from the MM. Problem is, they have a Thiefling (wiz), an Aasimar (Cleric), Half Drow (Ranger ) and Human (Rogue), so these guys already look like a "powerful races united" outing, hehe. And going Aasimar on a cleric/fighter build looks slightly copycat besides.

Might even be worth a monster hit dice or two if you find something appealing enough. Depends what 'floats' in your group.

No can do - nothing with an ECL byeond +1 (the exact term was "no armed monstrosity please" )

I'd seriously think about the cleric. 6 levels will set you back 2 BAB - which I think you'll notice:

Fighter 2: Cleric 6: Kensai 6 you'll be at +10/+5.
Fighting Type(s) 8: Kensai 6 - +12/+7/+2

Amazing how much difference that can make? Extra 'throwaway' attack and a +10% chance to hit?

I'd discuss it with the group you've got, but you may well be able to get most of boosts from buffs your wizard and cleric can cast? Either that, or a well chosen selection of items and scrolls?

The math looks rather convincing, especially if I calculate in Str-bonus and weapon the third attack starts looking reasonably useful to have - probably going to be cleric 4/Fighter 4 (BA+7 instead of +8 ) then and pick up Weapon spec (which fits the concept rather nicely ) , only sets me back +1 BA for 2 cool defensive powers, spell use and improved saves. Total BA of +11/+6/+1 - But with +5 Str, +3 weapon and +1 WFocus in the wings...

Slightly higher HP, too.