Help on Bard Build - It's a matter of pride, folks.

[Scratched_back]

Since you're playing Forgotten Realms...

Spellcasting Prodigy is probably the single BEST feat out there...

>>NOTE<< this is an awesome feat for spellcasters whose PRIMARY CONCERN is casting spells. If you want to be an enchanter, take it. If you want to work off boosting your party with Inspire Courage & Co., it's not as crucial (I'd say stick with Inspire Courage, but was just throwing out another option for ya.)

I was under the impression that Spellcasting Prodigy had been nerfed now so that it didn't effect the DCs of your spells. There's a misprint somewhere in the Guide to Faerun because the one-line description in the spell lists say it ups the DC where as the feat itself makes no mention of this.

I'd already been looking into it y'see

 

[Synthetik Fish]

I was under the impression that Spellcasting Prodigy had been nerfed now so that it didn't effect the DCs of your spells. There's a misprint somewhere in the Guide to Faerun because the one-line description in the spell lists say it ups the DC where as the feat itself makes no mention of this.

I'd already been looking into it y'see

IF the feat up's the DC AND the spells per day, it Rocks. If not, it's ok still. I thought (and indeen am playing it this way with my 14 year old human wizard) that it adds tothe DC too, and the DM seems to agree. I gues that's what it all comes down to, eh?

EDIT: 3.5 already over spellcasters enough by reducing Spell Focus to only +1, and Spellcasting Prodigy can ONLY be taken at your first character level. Not only would I say that the feat is fair, I'd go so far as to say that every spellcaster (who is again, Primarily a spellcaster... might not apply to soem bards and pallys and such) NEEDS this feat and SHOULD take it (that is, if it also adds to the spell save DC like my Forgotten Realms Core book says it does...)

 

[Synthetik Fish]

Song of the Heart [General]
Your bardic music reaches the depths of its listeners' hearts.

Prerequisites: Bardic music class feature, inspire competence ability, Perform 6 ranks.

Benefit: When you use inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics, any bonus granted by your music increases by +1. Thus, a 15th-level bard with this feat grants his allies a +4 bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws against fear when he uses inspire courage, rather than the +3 he would normally grant. If he uses inspire greatness, the same bard grants up to three allies 3 bonus Hit Dice, a +3 bonus on attack rolls, and a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves.
Also, when you use fascinate, suggestion, or mass suggestion, the saving throw DC increases by 1.
If you have the Haunting Melody feat, the saving throw DC for that effect also increases by 1. If you have the Music of Growth feat, the bonus bestowed by that feat increases to +6. If you have the Music of Making feat, the bonus on Craft checks bestowed by that feat increases to +6. If you have the Sooth the Beast feat, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your Perform check to improve the attitude of an animal or magical beast.

 

[Scratched_back]

I'd go so far as to say that every spellcaster NEEDS this feat and SHOULD take it (that is, if it also adds to the spell save DC like my Forgotten Realms Core book says it does...)

In the updated version, Players guide to Faerun, I think it doesn't increase your DC simply because EVERY spell caster no matter what took it, which is a prime reason for nerfing. Just like the 3.0 spell focus and greater spell focus.

 

[jasin]

I also noted another spell in Player's Guide to Faerun (Or PGF or whatever you crazy kids are calling it nowadays ) called Harmony which is another +1 to Inspire Courage effects.

Whoah.

More details, please? Level, duration, casting time...?

 

[jasin]

IF the feat up's the DC AND the spells per day, it Rocks. If not, it's ok still.

If not (and the 3.5 answer is "not"), it sucks! You have to take it at 1st level and all it does is grant you a spell slot or two. And if you don't pay attention, it might end up doing nothing, like in the case of an Int 17 5th-level wizard, who gets treated as an Int 19 Wiz5, which means he still has the exact same number of spells per day. Make that Int 18 treated as Int 20, and he gets one 1st-level slot for the cost of a feat, a regional, 1st-level-only feat at that (they're supposed to be slightly more powerful, no?)

I guess it might have it's uses if you cannot afford to keep your spellcasting stat maxed, so that the feat ends up granting you a bonus slot of your highest level... but that's a rather rare situation for pure casters, IME.

 

[jasin]

My DM let me start with starting gold for a 1st level Bard, also a MW weapon of any kind I can use, and MW Studded Leather. I haven't decided what to spend the cash on yet, but I did negotiate a MW weapon traded for a MW instrument. In this case, either a drum or a horn. I haven't decided yet. Either would add a further +1 to my song effect.

Just consider that singing leaves your hands empty for a buckler and a longsword, while performing on an instrument likely takes up both. This is the reason I never seriously considered instruments for my 3E bard.

Then again, he was supposed to be a combat, swordsman bard. If your thing will be staying behind the lines and inspiring an harassing with spells, yet another +1 to inspire courage might well be worth giving up your longsword attack that won't hit anyway. (But bladeweave seems so nice, and no bladeweave if no blade... )

It's become clear that Inspirational Boost is a very worthwhile spell for me to take, but I haven't decided on my other 1st level spell yet, nor on my cantrips.

Grease is nice. Hideous laughter is deadly if you meet lots of creatures of your type (humanoids, presumably), but not so good against others (they get +4 to the save). Swift expeditious retreat from CAdv is good for a melee bard (I think, never tried it): it's expeditious retreat, but you can cast it as a swift action and it only lasts for 1 round.

Cantrips are... well, cantrips. Pick whatever you want, they're not going to be what makes you or breaks you. Detect magic and read magic are, of course, useful, but the true spellcasters are bound to have them anyway. Message is the only other thing that stands out; it's like a (very ) poor man's telepathic bond. Summon instrument is kind of cool if you use an instrument.

It's become painstakingly clear that feats are what it's all about. This being said, I think it'll be human that I'll choose. I still need one more feat in that case, suggestions still welcome.

What's your first choice? I missed that, and now I can't seem to find it.

Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm are nice. With a whip, that's +6 to disarm right there, over and above your normal attack bonus. And when you don't want to be hit, you can use Expertise to the max and still have a decent chance of hitting AC 10 (for aid another) or touch AC (for that daze effect, with bladeweave).

Heighten Spell is good if you plan on using offensive spells. At 16th-level, you could still be blinding people with glitterdusts and making them drop weapons with greases, with 6th-level spell DCs.

Two more feats that need to be mentioned (you can't take them at 1st, but they're definitely something to be considered for later) are Doomspeak from Champions of Ruin and Haunting Melody from Eberron. Doomspeak lets you impose a -10(!) penalty to pretty much everything for 1 round on a single opponent that fails a very difficult (DC = 10 + character level! + Cha) Will save. Haunting Tune lets you make enemies within 30 ft. shaken (standard Will save). Both use up one use of bardic music, of course. However, Doomspeak also requires 8 ranks in intimidate, so a single class bard can take it at 15th level at the soonest, but a Ftr/Brd or a Rog/Brd can take it at 6th.

I haven't looked, but I wonder if there are any regional feats applicable to the bard.

There's one that allows rushed diplomacy checks at -5 instead of -10, IIRC.

There's also another one that gives you something like the dragons' frightful presence. When you attack or cast a spell, Will save to avoid being shaken... something like that. Could be useful, since the DC is, of course, Cha-based...

Let us know if you find any other that are useful!

If not, extra music seems to be a strong contender.

The value of Extra Music depends heavily on how fast you expect to level, I think. If you'll be 2nd level for a significant amount of time, Extra Music is great: it more than doubles your music/day, right? But as you go up in levels, it becomes less and less useful. I played my bard 7th-9th and IIRC I ran out of music just once, and I was using Snowflake Wardance, which means another use every time I personally got into a fight.

A Buckler sounds tasty for +1 AC until it's enchanted, bearing in mind that my AC will be pathetic, I don't mind a 5% ASF.

Mind that when you can afford a mithral buckler, that's 0% ASF.

Also, a whip I think will be very useful indeed, I shall buy one with my starting gold.

Even considering you're planning to use the mw instrument rules that let you tweak the music bonuses, you might still want to trade that mw instrument back for a mw weapon (whip, or whatever)... and then just buy a mw instrument! A mw instrument is 100 gp, while a weapon is 300 gp, after all.

 

[the Lorax]

The true art in playing a bard is the role-playing and not the roll-playing.

This is true, but the goal here is to make a bard that the party will appreciate.

The bard is a multi talented character who can be fairly competent at a number of tasks. If you are trying to make a bard effective in a group, it would be best to focus your bard's abilities in areas that the rest of your group lacks. Feat choices need to be carefully made. Given the bard's flexibility, I would actually suggest the 3rd array - no penalty stats.

Combat is how the rest of the players will measure your effectiveness. So forget silly feats that dont help you fight better like the earlier mentioned Extra Music. As a support character, going for the archery feat chain can be useful - unless your group already contains a Fighter or Ranger based Archer in which case you will only reinforce the "bards are wimpy versions of other classes" opinion.

There is NO choice for race. Human is the only way to go. You need every extra feat you can get, and as a master of versitility bonus skill points is crucial.

Thanee accurately selects what is IMO the best stat array
Str 14 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 16

13 int/12 con could be switched depending upon your feat choices, as HP gains are retroactive, but skill point gains are not.

Spells are actually going to be fairly easy.
0 - Daze is probably your best 0 level attack spell, Detect Magic and Light are also required. Round out the 0s as you like.

1 - CLW, even if its the only "cure" spell you ever take, you wont regret it ever no matter what level you reach. Grease is probably the most credible long term attack combat spell you can manage, but dont fall into the Sleep or Charm Person trap - spells you will never use after a level or 3.

Diplomacy is a useful tool, but becareful to use it when needed, not as your main ability, otherwise the DM is going to really get annoyed at how you are twinking the rules. The RAW Diplomacy rules leave a little to be desired as it should all be based upon situational modifiers and the rulebook does not give enough advice on how to judge these.

Going to Dragon Disciple is not a bad option if you can get away with it and still claim "Bard" status (this is a matter of pride after all), You could even do the Bard 3/Ranger 2/Dragon Disciple X which could be fun. But as a bard is all about versitility, you may want to let the campaign direct your advancement.

 

[irdeggman]

This is true, but the goal here is to make a bard that the party will appreciate.


Combat is how the rest of the players will measure your effectiveness. So forget silly feats that dont help you fight better like the earlier mentioned Extra Music. As a support character, going for the archery feat chain can be useful - unless your group already contains a Fighter or Ranger based Archer in which case you will only reinforce the "bards are wimpy versions of other classes" opinion.

Not in all games. In the ones I've played in interacton quite often is more important. In fact some of our "best" session involved no combat at all and next to no dice rolling.

And I have to greatly disagree with the comment on Extra Music. If the party ony appreciates how the character can "help" in combat then at low levels this is of paramount importance since it can give all allies a +1 to attack and damage for as long as the bard continues to perform (usually sing or chant) - which is much longer than the effect from spells and alows the other spellcasters to dedicate their spell slots to other spells (either of the buff kind or offensive oriented ones).

The benefit of the Extra Music feat is also dependent on how many encounters the party has within a day. Are they a series of encounters that lead up to a big one (i.e., gradually wearing down the party) or are they basically one big encounter? Different styles have different tactics.


The problem with trying to "emulate" a fighter is that by all comparisons the bards will end up on the short side of the stick and and the group will still think that they suck becasue if the character was a true fighter then he would have performed that function better. No, it is usually better to focus on what makes the class different and to show itsstrong points. By focusing on ranged attacks the class' broad base is being neglected. The benefits from the bardic music cross several areas (from pure combat to skill assistance to breaking enchantments) The idea would be to show that the bard can do a little of everything and be better than at least one of the other classes at everything. In combat the bard is better than the wizard, in spellcasting the bard is better than the fighter or rogue, in healing capability the bard is better tan everyone except for druids and clerics, etc. The only thing a bard is better than everyone at is in his ability to interact with others.

 

[Riksdag Panda]

I don't know if this is too late but the Daunting Presence Feat from Libris Mortis seems perfect for a bard,

Prequisites: Cha 13 BAB +1
You may take a standard action to awe an opponent. The opponent must me within 30 feet, have line of sight to you and have an intellegence score. If the opponents fails a will save (DC half character level + 10 + cha modifier) then it is shaken for 10 minutes.

I dont know for you guys but I read it as you can do it EVERY round,further more they cant become immune to it.

Finally I always wanted to play a bard with this feat that uses perform (mime), that later becomes a seeker of the song...

Orc Horde: "Look, white person..."
(mimes)
Orc Horde: "ARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH MYSTERIOUS INCOHERENT MOVEMENT!!"
(Mimes some more, blast of lightning dealing 10d6)
Orcs now have constant fear of mimes.