Help on Bard Build - It's a matter of pride, folks.

[domino]

How do you figure +9 synergy bonus? Sounds more like bogus to me, but if you can show me where you got that i'll be much impressed.

Apparently the Complementary Insight feat from Races of Destiny makes all synergy bonuses +3 instead of +2.

 

[Iku Rex]

For the record, my Jester is very much a good bard Because he is a bard, not Despite it. Don't know who that comment was aimed at.

It wasn't "aimed at" anyone, with the possible exception of the OP.

Also note that the word used was "effective", not "good". I can't comment on what you consider a "good" character, but I can say that some of the suggestions in this thread have the bard focusing on tactics that, while effective, would work even better for other classes.

How do you figure +9 synergy bonus? Sounds more like bogus to me, but if you can show me where you got that i'll be much impressed.

Feat: Complimentary Insight (RoD) (+3 rather than +2 synergies)

Personally, I find half-elf's next to useless, unless you're choosing them only for roleplaying. A half-elf doesn't get anythign that an elf doesn't get- an elf just gets more, and a +2 Dex (yeah, I'm willing to make and even +2/-2 trade... I think any "even" stat trades like this in the long run end up benefiting you more than hindering you.)

Half-elf is a prerequisite for the Complimentary Insight feat, the suggested Sociable Personality feat (reroll diplomacy and gather information checks) and, obviously, half-elf bard racial substitution levels. Half-elves also get a +2 racial bonus on diplomacy checks, the character's main shtick.

Even low-light requires light.

And then you see twice as far as the party members without low-light vision. It's not a useless ability.

-stats. A small negative is always easy to compromise for. Its really hard, however, to up your stats, and I personally would take any bonus availible.

Everyone needs Con, including Dex based characters. I'll trade a measly +1 to hit for [character level] hit points any day. And Fortitude is a more important save than Reflex. The elven ability trade is rarely an advantage, game-mechanically.

(At best you can gain some extra points if you're using point buy.)

 

[Synthetik Fish]

Completely valid! I must thank you for not taking my reply offensively, as it was not intended as such. Good form!

 

[fuindordm]

Also note that the word used was "effective", not "good". I can't comment on what you consider a "good" character, but I can say that some of the suggestions in this thread have the bard focusing on tactics that, while effective, would work even better for other classes.

Well, and that's the problem with bards isn't it? They can do a little of everything, so no matter what they choose to focus on (with the exception of diplomacy) they will be less effective at that than another member of the party could be.

But a bard can be better than everyone else at Diplomacy without even trying. There's no need to burn valuable feats boosting that +13 Diplomacy roll up to a +20, in my mind. A bard should always do diplomacy well, and then use their feats, skills, and spell selection to try to do one other thing well (melee combat, ranged combat, spellcasting, skill and knowledge monkey, etc.) Then you get a character who is always the best face for the party (lots of fun for you to play, if you like interacting with NPCs--and if you don't you shouldn't ever play a bard), can be pretty effective in one other area, and will almost always have something to contribute no matter what challenge the party faces.

At least, that's my philosophy. A melee bard (especially the barbarian/bard), an archery bard, and an enchanter bard are no less bards for their focus, and all three will excel at their primary mission of interacting with the NPCs.

Ben

 

[jasin]

Okay to clarify, first and foremost I'm looking for a character that isn't going to be the reject of the group.

Well, being 2nd level in a 4th-level party sure isn't helping with that! But hey, at least you didn't die at 8th level and come back at 1st...

I think one of the reasons that the guys I game with laugh at the bard are his exclusive abilities. "+1 to stuff once per level per day? THAT'S what you're getting for playing a BARD?!"

"Once per level per day" quickly comes to mean "every fight" in D&D.

Also, it's not quite +1... it's +1 at 1st, +2 at 8th, +3 at 14th and +4 at 20th. And there's also the inspirational boost spell from Complete Adventurer, that increases the bonus by +1. And there's the Song of the Heart feat from Eberron, which improves all bardic music by 1, which you can take at 3rd level (so not yet, but soon). So at 3rd level, you could be granting +3/+3 to attack/damage three times per day. That's better than mass bull's strength 3/day... at 3rd-level!

And if you really want to make a point (be careful, you don't want any real hard feelings...), when someone scoffs at how your inspiration sucks, they just don't get it the next time. So everyone's fighting at +3/+3, but the smartass is at +0/+0. I think you won't be hearing complaints anymore.

Improved Trip and/or Improved Disarm can be really useful with a whip, if your opponents are mostly weapon-users, and not too big. The +4 you get from the feats mean you don't need that big a Str. And the whip gets another +2 to disarm.

Snowflake Wardance is nice for a melee bard, and it works with the whip. Just remember that you're fatigued for 10 minutes afterwards, so either have lesser restorations ready, or be ready to rest for a while, or get immunity to fatigue somehow. (My bard with Snowflake Wardance was a necropolitan... undead don't get fatigued. )

Bladeweave from Complete Adventurer is a great melee bard spell (2nd level), and is for me the prime example of what bardic combat should be all about. It grants you an extra melee touch attack with a slashing weapon when you attack or full attack; this attack doesn't deal damage, but the victim is dazed if they fail a Will save. So who cares you can't hit anything with your Str 10? You can hit touch AC, surely, and that means someone has to make a Will save or do nothing, each round!

At 6th level and beyond, anyone who isn't outright hostile is potentially your toy. The fascinate save DC soon becomes almost impossible to beat, and suggestion DC is decent (+1 if you have Song of the Heart, and +2 with Ability Focus, which might be a good idea). Sneak up to enemies and suggest they fight each other; when enemies sneak up to you, use diplomacy to get them to stop attacking for just a moment... and suggest they fight each other. Suggest guards to let you through; suggest people to give you information you seek.

Bards are useful. Very useful.

The bard's weakness as a class isn't lack of usefulness, it's lack of glamour/flashiness/spotlight opportunity. A party with an extra fighter will be able to kill the dragon more quickly because the extra fighter will be in there, dealing damage. A party with an extra bard will be able to kill the dragon more quickly because they'll all be attacking at +3/+3. Both the bard and the fighter are useful for the party. However, the fighter has a decent chance of being the one who takes down the dragon. The bard will be the one who helped someone else take down the dragon. And for many, many people, it feels much better to be one doing stuff, than the one who lets others do stuff.

I think that, ironically, bards are best suited for players who aren't show-offs, and who don't easily feel upstaged by their mates. The bard will hardly ever do anything well enough to steal the show (except social interaction, and that's such a small part of typical D&D game) and let the player feel like THE MAN!!1, but if you can derive satisfaction from being able to say "sure, Jim took him down, but he would never've done it without me!" a bard can be a very rewarding class to play.

Oh, another good feat for a melee bard: Arcane Strike.

 

[Stormrunner]

Spell-wise, there are a number of good spells that are either available only to bards, or that bards get early. Tasha's Hideous Laughter can be highly effective - I'd take that and Inspirational Boost as your 1st-level spells.
You get 5 cantrips - and your choices include two bard-exclusive ones, Lullaby and Summon Instrument. Most power-players remove the need for Summon Instrument by taking Oratory, Poetics, or the like as their Perform choice, which seems mildly cheesy to me, but oh well. Lullaby can be useful for sneaking past guards and the like - the rogue will be your friend, but the rest of the party might prefer to just attack and who cares if they sound the alarm.
I always take Mage Hand and Prestidigitation, they are the most flexible cantrips. The ability to "twiddle" things at a distance, or levitate small objects, has a thousand and one uses. As for Presti, it may not be flashy in combat, but you can: provide the party with hot food/drink without the need for a smoky and visible fire, dye everyone's clothes/armor appropriate colors for the terrain to gain a circumstance bonus of Hide (or appropriate colors for members of the enemy army if you're doing a little spying), fool someone into thinking you are a powerful wizard (e.g., sparks jumping off your fingers then threaten to "shocking grasp" them unless they do as you say), etc. - it's the Swiss Army Knife of cantrips. Daze is good at low levels, especially if you can raise the DC with a feat or something.
And carry a whip, even if ti's not your primary attack form. You can automatically use one as a bard, while everyone else has to spend an Exotic Weapon feat, so you might as well carry one. The 15' reach comes in handy. A masterwork buckler is a must - +1 to AC, no skill check penalty, and it doesn't tie up a hand. If you can afford the extra 1,000 gp for a mithral one, no spell failure chance either - if not, 5% isn't bad, especially since your spells are unlikely to be of the "This spell must go off or we all die" type.

 

[irdeggman]

I would like to hear what the OP decided to do and how it worked though.

 

[Synthetik Fish]

I would like to hear what the OP decided to do and how it worked though.

I ditto that (actually, I said that a while ago, too)

 

[Scratched_back]

I would like to hear what the OP decided to do and how it worked though.

Okay, first of all, I asked my DM if I could use that Eberron feat (song of the heart) despite us playing in FR, he said fine no problems. Now if I read that correctly from JASIN's post earlier on, once I meet the pre-requisites at 3rd level, that feats slaps +1 on to my Inspire Courage Bardic Music. (I would appreciate it incidentally if somebody could paste that feat here word for word as I don't have access to Eberron material.)

My DM let me start with starting gold for a 1st level Bard, also a MW weapon of any kind I can use, and MW Studded Leather. I haven't decided what to spend the cash on yet, but I did negotiate a MW weapon traded for a MW instrument. In this case, either a drum or a horn. I haven't decided yet. Either would add a further +1 to my song effect.

It's become clear that Inspirational Boost is a very worthwhile spell for me to take, but I haven't decided on my other 1st level spell yet, nor on my cantrips. Needless to say, with Inspirational Boost in effect, at 2nd level I'd be giving allies +3 to hit, at 3rd level it'd rise to +4 (With song of the heart).

It's become painstakingly clear that feats are what it's all about. This being said, I think it'll be human that I'll choose. I still need one more feat in that case, suggestions still welcome. I haven't looked, but I wonder if there are any regional feats applicable to the bard. If not, extra music seems to be a strong contender.

Down to stats. I think I may take... well... I just don't know. The 18 from Line A (see OP) is so tempting, but if I took that and slapped it into CHA I could never have a decent DEX and INT. I've accepted the fact that melee is not the build I'm going for, I'll be more of a support man so STR isn't an issue particularly. Still... I just don't know what to do with those stats :\

Synthetik Fish: Thanks for the throwing suggestion. I did ponder it for quite a long time, but I think it'll be slightly too top-heavy for feats. That, and the fact that I don't want to make a target of myself for all the enemies, especially being 2 levels under-par. I'd get my face stoved in! Thanks for the suggestion though, and I appreciate the effort it took!

I do like the idea of still being the party face, and I do like the idea of Mega-DC fascinates and charms, so I'd love the 18 in CHA, but the rest of the stats are giving me a headache!

Still thinking I'm afraid, but keep the ideas rolling guys!

EDIT: A Buckler sounds tasty for +1 AC until it's enchanted, bearing in mind that my AC will be pathetic, I don't mind a 5% ASF. Also, a whip I think will be very useful indeed, I shall buy one with my starting gold.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I'd give back the MW instrument and take the MW weapon, personally.

... unless you're using the instruments from, say, Complete Adventurer, which allow you to shift around your bonuses when using your bardic abilities (like, for instance, using Inspire Courage with a trumpet improves the bonuses on attacks and damage by 1, but decreases the morale bonus on saves vs. feat by 1).

I'll try and post Song of the Heart from Eberron later today, if no one's gotten around to it by then.

The basic gyst is, "Any numerical effects of your bard song abilities are increased by 1."