help, the pc's are unstoppable [Thread necromancy]
- Thread starter holomachamp
- Start date
iwatt
First Post
mirzabah said:
This is what I did IMC. except I still DM both (same characters split into two groups, fullfilling the quests). And I agree that just making encounters with EL+2 factored in isn't that simple. The fact is you ahve to deal with the following with big parties:
If you do the BIG bad creature with CR +2, you have the following issues:
1) If the monster wins Initiative, he can possibly take out one PC easily.
2) if the monstr loses initaitive, he get's hammered by 8 actions from the PCs...ouch.
So your best bet is to use same CR, but double the monsters. That's actually a better fit, but it still ahs issues:
1) Need open areas to fight, not always possible in a dungeon adventure. And the gamis is called Dungeons and Dragons
2) Combats take even longer. And they get either boring (use same monsterx2) or very complicated (different monsters with many special abilities). This is actually very relevant, since at higher level it is necessary to introduce spellcaster as enemies once in a while, and they're a lot moer trouble to work with as a DM (try running an opposite party with 2 arcane casters, 2 divine casters, 2 tanks, 2 supports). It get's complicated in ahurry. My response is to use sorcerors as enemy spellcaster most of the time (simplest spellslinger ou there by far).
I know of DMs who can handle this workload easily. I wasn't one of them. After the combat was over I would realize I hadn't used one of the more powerful abilities of a given monster because I was overwhelmed by options.
derbacher
Explorer
Newbie practices thread necromancy! Four replies in under an hour to his first post on a three-year-old thread. I thought you had to be level 5 at least?Henry said:Steelhart, I don't know if you'll get many takers, since the last reply to this thread is three years old.
But welcome to the forums!
A blast from the past - this thread is from just about the exact time my first 3.0 campaign started to get out of control. It's not so much that it wasn't possible to come up with challenging encounters, as the large and increasing amount of time it took to devise encounters that took into account all the party's capabilities, and still seemed plausable. That is, not resorting to the dungeon where the Gods decreed all mortals must hop with one arm behind their backs.
My solution was to end the campaign with a final grand battle to save the world, then start a new campaign with slightly tighter ground rules for what resources were available.
My solution was to end the campaign with a final grand battle to save the world, then start a new campaign with slightly tighter ground rules for what resources were available.
Lazybones
Adventurer
Sure the OP is long moved on, but in case people with similar problems are still listening...
Advanced hezrou with HD = highest PC level +2. This is a party killer build, since the blasphemy will hit anyone within 40' with the force of a tactical nuke. If the extra HD give it a feat, choose Improved Initiative. Cohorts and companions are likely to be killed outright. In fact, I wouldn't even use this unless it was a big party and someone had spell resistance or remained further away than 40'.
If you need more umph or some minions, throw in a couple of advanced jovoc demons.
Advanced hezrou with HD = highest PC level +2. This is a party killer build, since the blasphemy will hit anyone within 40' with the force of a tactical nuke. If the extra HD give it a feat, choose Improved Initiative. Cohorts and companions are likely to be killed outright. In fact, I wouldn't even use this unless it was a big party and someone had spell resistance or remained further away than 40'.
If you need more umph or some minions, throw in a couple of advanced jovoc demons.
Tzarevitch
First Post
holomachamp said:
Someone already mentioned the bit about area control spells, but it bears reiteration. Walls of stone can be used to separate party members and control their movement and allow you to mass your npcs against smaller numbers of or single PCs. Fog/visibility blocking spells will tend to disrupt ranged combat characters severely. You cannot target a foe with a spell if you cannot see him (beware you CAN target area spells) so the enchanter can't use many enchantments. Wind wall will automatically deflect most missile attacks.
Status effects also work well. They are a gift that keeps on giving. They don't have to be seriously debilitating but they do have to be enought to force the PC to accept an inconvienent penalty or take some time or expend an item to counter it.
- Ray of Enfeeblement. This spell is actually hard to counter in a fight. Lesser Restoration will fix it but it takes more than a round to cast. Also, the spell doesn't allow a save. Oh, and it is 1st level.
-Ray/Waves of Exhaustion/Fatigue: Similar to Ray of Enfeeblement above except they are even better. The fatigue and exhaustion conditions aren't easy to remove in a fight. The spells to get rid of them tend to either take time to cast or are high level. Also, the Waves of ____ spells have cone-shaped areas and they don't grant a save.
- Enervation/Energy Drain: Both of these impose significant penalties with no save.
Countering Individual PCs:
Against the Enchanter: First of all, how exactly do his enchantments affect undead? Regardless, Mind Blank is a sovereign protection against enchantments, and it lasts 24 hours. Spell Turning also works well, let him save against his own spells for a while. Rods of Absorption, Ioun Stones that absorb targeted spells and Rings of Counterspells also work well. You can also have a sorcerer around to use Dispel Magic to counterspell. Also, if his enchantments works against undead, how about constructs?
Against the Barbarian: Use tactics like trip, sunder and disarm. He can't do his trick very well if you keep disarming or tripping him and moving away. Grapple tactics also work well. He can't use most non-light weapons in a grapple. Also, use terrain control spells (Sleet Storm and Entangle work well to inhibit movement). The barbarian cannot charge over uneven ground, and if he is using some sort of flight, dispel it. Use spells and effects that grant a miss chance. Lastly, use Combat Expertise ( and Improved Combat Expertise from Oriental Adventures). If you can get your AC high enough that he can't hit you easily, he can't power attack for much.
Against the Arcane Archer: Use the Deflect Arrows or Shield Block feats to deflect an arrow. Anything that obscures visibility grants total concealment makes life hard on archers. If they can't see the target they suffer a 50% miss chance. If they don't even know which sqaure the target is in, the target has a 100% miss chance. Once your creatures figure out the direction of attack, use the cheapest wall spell you can to block the line of fire and force him to move to a new position or come closer where you can attack him.
Against the ninja: I have one word: GLITTERDUST. There is no save vs. the revealing aspect of the spell. Here is another two words FAERIE FIRE. This spell also has no save. Both of these spells are also very cheap, only 2nd level. The BLINDSIGHT spell also works well. For cheaper solutions, have the enemies use dogs or some other animal with scent. The animal will reveal the location of the ninja. Since the party is higher level, you'll need sturdier animals. Keep several animals around else the druid or the enchanter can bypass them. Use magical beasts with scent if at all possible because the druid can't make them friendly and it requires a higher spell for the enchanter to even attempt to charm them.
Against the whole party:
Hit and run. Keep the fight mobile and spread the NPCs out so that area-of-effect spells and powers (and Great Cleave) cannot get more than 2 or 3.
Divide and conquer. Wall off the party so they can't mutually support each other. Pound the wizard and the psion to the exclusion of everyone else. Arcane casters and psions have some of the highest damage output and poorest HP and defenses in the game. When you prepare a combat for the PCs, include some stealth characters (similar to the PC ninja in your game). Have them hide and not engage in the 1st round of the fight, then come out and sneak attack the wizard or the psion. They must come out and hit HARD. Strike like the PCs would.
In summation, you need to do what self-help books tend to advise people to do; imitate successful people (in this case your PCs). Plan your NPCs as efficiently as your players plan their PCs. Then have the NPCs do what the PCs do, employ tactics to maximize their capabilities and minimize their deficiencies while simultaneously minimizing the enemy's capabilities and maximizing their deficiencies.
Hope that helps,
Tzarevitch
P.S. Also, don't simply increase the CR of the opposition to adjust for party size. The CR system is crappy enough as it is, that just makes the guess-work worse. I saw this on Monte Cooke's website and it has worked well for me: simply increase the NPCs HP. Don't roll hp or assign the average. Try giving them Max HP or something close. That makes them tougher without increasing their capability across the board.
Tzarevitch
Last edited:
Tinner
First Post
Another thing that's going to help you challenge these guys is to become very familiar with the mechanics they are using.
Yes, but a Shadowdancer can hide in plain sight, but only if there is a patch of shadow nearby for him to hide in. Also note that hiding does not mean that he can't be targeted. If he can be detected via tremorsense, or scent, he can still be attacked, albeit with a miss chance due to total concealment.
I was plagued with a high level Rogue/Shadowdancer in my game, and he really gave me trouble until I carefully studied exactly what his powers were, and used foes designed to counter him. He was so cocky about his ability to hide in plain sight that he agreed to fight a one-on-one duel against a much stronger opponent.
He wasn't laughing when that opponent used a Wish to wish away all shadows in the arena for the duration of the fight.
For the high damage frenzied berserker/barbarian, try having him go up against a Nilbog (Tome of Horrors) with the same character levels as him, and the Entropic template added in for good measure. It gets healed when they attack it, it has a negative energy aura that weakens the oposition just being near him. He'll be all kinds of bad.
Yes, but a Shadowdancer can hide in plain sight, but only if there is a patch of shadow nearby for him to hide in. Also note that hiding does not mean that he can't be targeted. If he can be detected via tremorsense, or scent, he can still be attacked, albeit with a miss chance due to total concealment.
I was plagued with a high level Rogue/Shadowdancer in my game, and he really gave me trouble until I carefully studied exactly what his powers were, and used foes designed to counter him. He was so cocky about his ability to hide in plain sight that he agreed to fight a one-on-one duel against a much stronger opponent.
He wasn't laughing when that opponent used a Wish to wish away all shadows in the arena for the duration of the fight.
For the high damage frenzied berserker/barbarian, try having him go up against a Nilbog (Tome of Horrors) with the same character levels as him, and the Entropic template added in for good measure. It gets healed when they attack it, it has a negative energy aura that weakens the oposition just being near him. He'll be all kinds of bad.
Zappo
Explorer
I had a similar situation in a previous (3.0) campaign, caused by excessive powergaming and some cheating as well. So I used wizards casting Disjunction and Quickened Teleport, dragons that breathed unresistable damage, and multiple Balors. Oh, and the most powerful character was dunked into lava, resulting in the near-destruction of most of his equipment.
The only difficult part is doing this sort of stuff in a way that doesn't seem unfair. In that game, the wizard having Disjunction and plans to use it on a certain something was a central part of the plot, so the players couldn't complain. They had ample warning. The dragons with weird breath were another major plot point, and the party had already heard that their flames somehow were able to hurt gold and red dragons. And the Balors, what the hell, the party alienist called them. He sucked at bargaining. They betrayed the party. It's his fault for trying to deal with tanar'ri. Even the lava jump resulted from a miscast Teleport. Not my fault, no no.
The game went on quite well, the party eventually defeated everything above, and the campaign concluded successfully.
The only difficult part is doing this sort of stuff in a way that doesn't seem unfair. In that game, the wizard having Disjunction and plans to use it on a certain something was a central part of the plot, so the players couldn't complain. They had ample warning. The dragons with weird breath were another major plot point, and the party had already heard that their flames somehow were able to hurt gold and red dragons. And the Balors, what the hell, the party alienist called them. He sucked at bargaining. They betrayed the party. It's his fault for trying to deal with tanar'ri. Even the lava jump resulted from a miscast Teleport. Not my fault, no no.
The game went on quite well, the party eventually defeated everything above, and the campaign concluded successfully.
