D&D 3E/3.5 Help with my Drow Swashbuckler (3.5)

[pawsplay]

quick and dirty

drow swashbuckler 6/duelist 4
Str 14
Dex 18 (22)
Con 12
Int 14 (16)
Wis 10
Cha 10

Special abilities: Grace +1, insightful strike, dodge bonus +1, grace, canny defense, improved reaction +2, enhanced mobility

Feats:
Weapon Finesse (B), Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus (rapier), Power Attack

Skills: Tumbling 12 ranks, blah blah

Gear: 88k
+4 rapier (32320)
bracers of armor +4 (16000)
amulet of natural armor +1 (2000)
gloves of dexterity +4 (16000)
headband of intellect +2 (4000)
ring of protection +2 (8000)
cloak of resistance +1 (1000)
expendables around 9000k

BAB +10
Saves Fort +8 (base +6 Con +1 resist +1), Ref +16 (base +6 Dex +6 grace +3 resist +1) , Will +4 (base +3 resist +1)
AC 26 (armor +4 Dex +6 Int +3 natural +1 deflection +2)
Full attack +21/+16 (1d6+9/18-20)

Attacking a young adult dragon defensively, devoting his entire dodge bonus to it, his AC would increase to 31 while his attack would drop to +17/+12 (1d6+9/18-20). To hit a CR 13 red dragon, he would need to roll a 9 (AC 26). With a +27 to hit, the dragon would need a 4. A team of four such characters using potions of haste, not attacking defensively (needing a 5 to hit), would be hit automatically but could deal about four times a round for about 12.5 damage, meaning that they could finish it off in about four rounds. Considering that a dragon is a tough opponent for a character like this, not a bad showing.

 

[Dandu]

Your reasoning is flawed. You assume the dragon just sits there and takes it.

Dragons can fly. They also have Breath Weapons and Spells (cast as a level 5 sorcerer). The spells alone would probably crush your team or at least give it a very bad day. Your will saves, for example, are horrible, and Glitterdust is a second level spell (DC 14 negates for a young adult). A CR 13 Young Adult also has Frightful Presence DC 21, will save negates (result of failure is a-2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.)

Now, as for your character, despite all your investment on AC, still gets hit on a 4 assuming the dragon has no equipment or spells active to buff him. This is not impressive.

Furthermore, you assume your entire team gets full attacks. Given that a dragon can move, this is the wrong assumption to make. A dragon can launch with flyby attacks with its fly speed of 150 feet, for starters.

 

[pawsplay]

I didn't really put forward any "reasoning," just numbers. You're assuming the drow has no teammates at all. I wasn't designing a set piece, I was just running some numbers against the toughest CR 13 thing I can think of, and the drow passed handily.

Oh, and btw.... frightful presence is an issue, but the breath weapon would be a joke against a character with that high a Reflexes. Glitterdust has only an even chance of working, and a duration of five rounds at CL 5 assuming it doesn't get dispelled. If the dragon is intent on attacking him, he can just walk in a circle for a couple of rounds while his teammates chew on the dragon like candy.

 

[Dandu]

I didn't really put forward any "reasoning," just numbers. You're assuming the drow has no teammates at all.

You said that four of those duelists could take out a dragon in a few rounds. "A team of four such characters could..."

This is manifestly untrue if the dragon does anything other than stand around like an idiot.

I wasn't designing a set piece, I was just running some numbers against the toughest CR 13 thing I can think of, and the drow passed handily.

Handily my arse. Care to demonstrate exactly how it "passed handily"? From what I can see, it's not even a threat to the dragon because it can't reach the thing.

Even assuming you engage it in combat by obtaining flight, your calculations assume that the Dragon has not used any spells or any of its wealth to increase its AC. The dragon can easily get +8 to its AC with Shield and Mage Armor, not to mention a casting of Shield of Faith for an additional +2 to AC. This is +10 to AC so far. Suddenly, you're only hitting on a roll of 19 or higher when fighting defensively, while the Dragon still doesn't need to sweat in order to hit you. Not so hot, eh?

If the dragon has his second 2nd level spell as Mirror Image... you now have to deal with a decent miss chance.

A Horn of Fog costs 2000 and grants a stacking miss chance on top of that. The monster entry notes that dragons usually take Blind Fight which would help it fight under those conditions.

I could go on.

Oh, and btw.... frightful presence is an issue, but the breath weapon would be a joke against a character with that high a Reflexes.

The dragon gets infinite uses of the breath weapon. You will not be able to reach it and roll a 1 eventually. You also take damage on a successful save because you do not have Evasion.

Glitterdust has only an even chance of working,

Assuming the Dragon doesn't have a Cloak of Charisma or anything to increase the DC.

Glitterdust also has a range of Medium (100ft+10ft/level), so you're getting hit with it while the dragon is out of your range.

And it has a range of and a duration of five rounds at CL 5

Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, Lesser, 3000 gp

assuming it doesn't get dispelled.

There go your buffs.

If the dragon is intent on attacking him, he can just walk in a circle for a couple of rounds while his teammates chew on the dragon like candy.

You have no idea.

I reiterate that the dragon has a fly speed of 150 ft before any enhancement, and they take flyby attack. Walking in a circle isn't going to do squat.

So far, the hypothetical dragon has used up one feat, 3 out of 4 of its first level spells, both of its second level spells, and 5000 gp worth of equipment. I'd give it some more items, but I'm not quite sure what treasure it should have.

 

[pawsplay]

Handily my arse. Care to demonstrate exactly how it "passed handily"? From what I can see, it's not even a threat to the dragon because it can't reach the thing.

This was not a test to determine if drow can fly. The assertion was made that the drow would not be able to hit anything of appropriate CR, which was wrong, and that attacking defensively would make them unable to hit anything, also wrong. I used basic numbers... neither the drow nor the dragon are buffed.

I am not interested in drawing out an imaginary combat between the dragon and the drow plus three other characters who may or may not be drow swashbucklers, where the dragon has apparently had three rounds to buff itself and is flying and is equipped with numerous caster items as though it were an NPC sorcerer and the drow is not benefitting from any consummable items out of a several thousand gp budget that has not yet been spent etc. etc. The argument is a strawman.

Summary: drow has +21 to hit, "typical" AC for CR 13 creature is 26. Damage is fine. AC is fine. Will is a little weak, but SR helps with that, except against glitterdust and non-spell effects like fearsome presence.

The drow is fine.

 

[Dandu]

In this world where dragons don't take even the most basic measures to defend themselves, I guess they are.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Summary: drow has +21 to hit, "typical" AC for CR 13 creature is 26. Damage is fine. AC is fine. Will is a little weak, but SR helps with that, except against glitterdust and non-spell effects like fearsome presence.

The drow is fine.

The Swashbuckler and Duelist are high HD, full BAB classes with mediocre skill points and no ability to do much else other than fight well (just like the Fighter and others). I'd certainly hope such a build could go toe to toe with an equal CR monster! I know Dandu was riding you hard (too harshly, IMO) about Duelist being unable to even function and you were replying to him. But...really... I really don't think "he can fight ok" is enough. I asked you why even bother with Duelist when a straight classed Swashbuckler could reach those same benchmarks anyway?

At least with Dervish he gets a "nova" ability to burst out crazy damage (Dervish Dance), and the ability to better handle multiple foes and utilize his mobility better. The Duelist's damage bonuses aren't worth what you give up for them. The AC, with bracers of armor, is marginally better. And...that's about it. At least staying in Swashbuckler he'd eventually get to inflict ability damage, something most meatshields can't get so easily.

So yeah, no argument that a Duelist can still fight and function. I just think it's woefully underpowered and doesn't really add much of anything to a build.

 

[Dandu]

Allow me to apologize; I am an angry man with much that I am angry about.

 

[pawsplay]

The Swashbuckler and Duelist are high HD, full BAB classes with mediocre skill points and no ability to do much else other than fight well (just like the Fighter and others). I'd certainly hope such a build could go toe to toe with an equal CR monster! I know Dandu was riding you hard (too harshly, IMO) about Duelist being unable to even function and you were replying to him. But...really... I really don't think "he can fight ok" is enough. I asked you why even bother with Duelist when a straight classed Swashbuckler could reach those same benchmarks anyway?

At least with Dervish he gets a "nova" ability to burst out crazy damage (Dervish Dance), and the ability to better handle multiple foes and utilize his mobility better. The Duelist's damage bonuses aren't worth what you give up for them. The AC, with bracers of armor, is marginally better. And...that's about it. At least staying in Swashbuckler he'd eventually get to inflict ability damage, something most meatshields can't get so easily.

So yeah, no argument that a Duelist can still fight and function. I just think it's woefully underpowered and doesn't really add much of anything to a build.

Swashbuckler is mostly a waste of time... you have more hit points, basically. Duelist gets you the same acrobatic charge, better AC, much better incorporeal AC, and eventually, precise strike and elaborate parry. The swashbuckler's ability damage is crit-based and hence unreliable. Weapons of wounding are not expensive. The only swashbuckler builds I ever found appealing were dual-wielders, but even then, a straight up fighter can dish out more in the long run.

The Dervish is a decent class, probably stronger overall than Duelist. Still, front-like combatant is not how I would describe it. Also, to synergize Swashbuckler with Dervish, you have to take Weapon Focus (scimitar), which grants you no immediate benefit. Also, Dervish requires Combat Expertise, but their elaborate parry ability does not kick in when they use that feat.

 

[Dandu]

You forget, or at least do not mention, that Precise Strike gives piddling damage... and forces you to use a single weapon with no other weapon or shield in your off hand. SUUUUUUUCKS!