Heroes of Shadow

[Klaus]

I am with you on that issue... i really hate redundant abilities... they let my powergamer heart crumble...

So i would never play a shade with a class that gets stealth for free... (which is a personal preoblem, not really one of the system...)

If I get a chance to play a shade, I'll probably play a cunning bard, a gloom binder or an illusion mage (Stealth bonus from illusion school goes really well with the shade).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If I get a chance to play a shade, I'll probably play a cunning bard, a gloom binder or an illusion mage (Stealth bonus from illusion school goes really well with the shade).

Actually a shade cunning bard was what i have built a few hours ago... the ultility swaps are especially useful, as low level bard utilities rather suck...

 

[Klaus]

Actually a shade cunning bard was what i have built a few hours ago... the ultility swaps are especially useful, as low level bard utilities rather suck...

Plus, bards (and leaders in general) have a few minor-action powers that are handy when you use your standard action to activate One With Shadow. Post the character!

 

[Mengu]

Unnatural Vitality was meant to mimic the tasting of blood, so melee made sense. Keep in mind that you don't have to kill the enemy in the heat of battle. Just declare you're keeping the enemy unconscious with your last attack, then move in and finish the job with any melee attack (either during battle or after the battle is done). Does that feel a bit ruthless? Yes, as it should!

So, that's not bag of rats? I can ask my allies to knock non-minion kobolds unconscious, and eat one a day? Doesn't seem like any DM I know would let that fly.

Bloodwolf Form - A minor action to turn to wolf and another minor to turn back is a very... ahem... minor cost. You can be in wolf form, move (with the benefits of the form) adjacent to an enemy, change to vryloka form and still attack.

But you can't oath, quarry, curse, divine challenge, divine mettle, divine strength, lay on hands, ardent vow, inspiring word, shake it off, rousing words, etc. It's a very high cost, especially at higher levels when you have a plethora of other minor actions you may want to use from item powers, to class features, to utility powers. Very few builds have the luxury of spare minor actions. And ending your turn in a form that doesn't even allow you to make opportunity attacks or immediate action attacks is certainly another hindrance.

Crimson Wings - There's a thread on HoS errata at the WotC forums, you should post that there, it's a good idea to round out the power.

Will do, thanks.

 

[Aegeri]

Yeah that first point is going to be hugely at the mercy of the bag of rats rule and your DM.

 

[MrMyth]

I see what you're saying (no, I really do, I'm reading it on a screen! ). I think the action pendulum swung too much to the other end of the spectrum with the racial power (that problem *can* be sidestepped with careful building and playing), but the rest (including the surge penalty) made sense in the original intent of the race.

Yeah, I can certainly see that - especially if it started out as something that could potentially provide near-constant invisibility, I can see them trying to make it functional without overpowered... and ending up with what they have now, which went too far in the other direction.

Which one might hope would be fixed via errata... but that seems unlikely, given Mearl's comments about how powerful he sees it as now. Which did definitely undermine a bit of my faith in him as a designer, seeing that sort of defense of such a difficult to use racial ability.

For myself, even if I might be finding fault with the specific execution of the approach in this case, I do think there can be room in the game for balancing strengths with minor weaknesses such as the Shade's surge penalty. But it will always be a tricky thing to get just right, as we can see here.

In the end, though, I can't fault WotC too much for continuing to experiment with race and class design - I think such attempts, even if they don't always work out at first, are inevitably good for the game in the long run.

 

[Klaus]

So, that's not bag of rats? I can ask my allies to knock non-minion kobolds unconscious, and eat one a day? Doesn't seem like any DM I know would let that fly.



But you can't oath, quarry, curse, divine challenge, divine mettle, divine strength, lay on hands, ardent vow, inspiring word, shake it off, rousing words, etc. It's a very high cost, especially at higher levels when you have a plethora of other minor actions you may want to use from item powers, to class features, to utility powers. Very few builds have the luxury of spare minor actions. And ending your turn in a form that doesn't even allow you to make opportunity attacks or immediate action attacks is certainly another hindrance.



Will do, thanks.

The bag of rats argument was used for stuff like the warlock's pact boon (and specifically, the fey pact's teleport trigger), which *could* be abused. But in this case, it's a daily power that has half of its benefits as mostly fluff. I don't see it as being something that could be used as an example of the bag-o'-rats tactic, more like something akin to the Sentinel's day-long buffs.

As for the minor actions: some classes have tons of such options, others don't. Is Bloodwolf Form a no-brainer? Certainly not. If you have better uses for your minor actions, the power certainly isn't for you. But if you don't use your minor actions for much and you could use the added mobility and senses, then you get lots of mileage from the power. Rogues, for instance, uses very little in terms of minor actions.

 

[Mengu]

The bag of rats argument was used for stuff like the warlock's pact boon (and specifically, the fey pact's teleport trigger), which *could* be abused. But in this case, it's a daily power that has half of its benefits as mostly fluff. I don't see it as being something that could be used as an example of the bag-o'-rats tactic, more like something akin to the Sentinel's day-long buffs.

Then why not write it that way? Come up with a wording so after the first encounter of the day, you gain X. Done.

Rules need to be precise. I understand the desire to reflect fluff with rules. But ultimately you have to ask yourself, what is it that this rule is trying to accomplish? What is the easiest and cleanest way to present that? There is beauty in simplicity.

 

[Incenjucar]

Yeah, that usage pretty blatantly goes against the "sack of rats" sidebar in the... DMG I think it was?

You can't build rules around DM fiat.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Plus, bards (and leaders in general) have a few minor-action powers that are handy when you use your standard action to activate One With Shadow. Post the character!

It was more of a toying around than building a character... just something that immediately came to my mind when I have seen the shade...