D&D 5E Hex Shenanigans

[billd91]

Ever seen the end of the elevator scene in Captain America Winter Soldier? It's like that.

Yeah, excellent movie. Lands on a virtually indestructible vibranium shield that is defined to absorb the hell out of kinetic energy to mitigate his fall rather than just jumps. You got one of those? Or are you just jumping and relying on your hit points?

 

[billd91]

Or maybe this is what you're really after? "Dang the BBEG is down at the bottom of the 200 ft chasm, getting away! I'm going to try to hop down the side of the cliff, landing on footholds where I can, but getting to the bottom as fast as possible." vs "I'm going to jump down the cliff and catch him."

So its really just the language that people are using that you're worried about, not the actions per se?

You want to try to look ledges to jump to/scramble down? Give me a couple of jump checks/climb checks and I'll roll up the damage. Because you're trying to mitigate the fall in something akin to a genre-appropriate way. Colossus may be able to jump out of the Blackbird to get to the ground quickly, but Conan isn't Colossus - wrong genre, he's got a lot of plot armor, but he's not invulnerable like a living steel superhero. He's not going to just jump off a 200 foot cliff.

Of course, Conan probably also has an intuitive understanding of narrative conventions of his genre and is going to let the BBEG get away... for now, get drunk, brood about it, and pursue his revenge at a later date rather than die jumping off a cliff in a ridiculous attempt to stop him.

 

[jaelis]

You want to try to look ledges to jump to/scramble down? Give me a couple of jump checks/climb checks and I'll roll up the damage. Because you're trying to mitigate the fall in something akin to a genre-appropriate way. Colossus may be able to jump out of the Blackbird to get to the ground quickly, but Conan isn't Colossus - wrong genre, he's got a lot of plot armor, but he's not invulnerable like a living steel superhero. He's not going to just jump off a 200 foot cliff.

Well perhaps the origin of the dispute here is only that some of us would like to hear that explicitly stated, while others would just assume that is what is going on unless they are told otherwise. Which really isn't all that much difference to get excited about.

 

[billd91]

Well perhaps the origin of the dispute here is only that some of us would like to hear that explicitly stated, while others would just assume that is what is going on unless they are told otherwise. Which really isn't all that much difference to get excited about.

I utterly disagree about it not being that much of a difference. It's the difference between playing your character and playing a game token. It's the difference between understanding the genre determines the game world physics, not the rules. It's the difference between having the genre determine the appropriate set of what you can do (or try to do) while using the rules to operationalize it and having the rules determine what you can and can't do because RAW. They're very different perspectives that are frequently incompatible at the table and even moreso in these messageboards.

 

[Mort]

Yeah, excellent movie. Lands on a virtually indestructible vibranium shield that is defined to absorb the hell out of kinetic energy to mitigate his fall rather than just jumps. You got one of those? Or are you just jumping and relying on your hit points?

Please, we're talking about default 5e here, not some gritty low magic system (which probably has harsher falling rules anyway). A high level character would have learned all sorts of tricks to survive a fall - heck he probably does have a near indestructible shield or gauntlets, or weapon or whatever , that's part of what HP represent.

It just seems wasteful and unnecessary to suss out if a character is jumping "for the right reasons," they take the damage (consequences) and move on. Again out of game issues (disruptive behavior, etc.) deserve different treatment.

 

[Fanaelialae]

At what point did someone say they were swan diving? The original concept was just "jumping off a cliff."

Scroll back and look at my posts. Many of them explicitly refer to swan diving 200 feet on to rocks. The ones that didn't are simply because at a certain point, I get tired of repeating myself.

I was using that because it's a fairly incontrovertible example of a suicidal action, and I was discussing suicidal actions.

When I wasn't discussing suicidal actions (such as my response to you earlier about how I would handle a character jumping to pursue an enemy they knocked off a ledge) I called it out as such.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Please, we're talking about default 5e here, not some gritty low magic system (which probably has harsher falling rules anyway). A high level character would have learned all sorts of tricks to survive a fall - heck he probably does have a near indestructible shield or gauntlets, or weapon or whatever , that's part of what HP represent.

It just seems wasteful and unnecessary to suss out if a character is jumping "for the right reasons," they take the damage (consequences) and move on. Again out of game issues (disruptive behavior, etc.) deserve different treatment.

I agree that the best way of addressing disruptive behaviours is to simply talk to the player.

However, that's kind of skirting the issue. What I and others have been saying is that actions should have logical outcomes. The falling off of cliffs and guillotines and whatnot are just examples of that.

Let's say that there is a running wood chipper blocking the character's path. The player decides his character will dive through the wood chipper to get to the other side. Assuming the character doesn't have super powers that would enable this, I would warn the player that doing so would result in their character exiting the the other side as a very dead red mist. It doesn't matter how many HP you have, you can't pass through an active wood chipper and survive.

Most likely it's a simple misunderstanding. The player thought it was a death trap they could parkour their way through, whereas it is actually a guaranteed death unless disabled. But there are some players out there who think of HP as a force field or ablative dermal reinforcement. Those players literally think their high level character should be able to dive through a wood chipper and just take some HP damage. At my table, however that's not how it works, and I would make that clear.

That said, 5e was built upon the assumption that magic items aren't required. As such, you can't assume their existence, even in a high level game (although I agree that most games do use them). Additionally, I strongly disagree that HP are representative of something like an indestructible magic shield:

A) not every high level character has a magic shield. I'm fairly generous regarding magic items IMCs with the exception of shields and armor, which I am downright miserly about.

B) if you take away a high level character's gear (he's captured by powerful enemies and stripped) his HP don't change one whit. That says to me that his HP have no direct relationship to his gear.

Additionally, Captain America has superpowers that put him well above non-powered humans in terms of physical abilities. He may not be the Hulk, but he can do and survive things that an unpowered individual simply cannot. I'm pretty sure that very same movie opens with Cap lapping Falcon multiple times while on his morning run. Falcon is no slouch, assisting Cap during the climax of the movie, but we wouldn't expect him to be able to do or survive the things Cap can.

 

[Mort]

I agree that the best way of addressing disruptive behaviours is to simply talk to the player.

However, that's kind of skirting the issue. What I and others have been saying is that actions should have logical outcomes. The falling off of cliffs and guillotines and whatnot are just examples of that.

That's not exactly what some people in this thread have been saying though.

The argument has been that the reason for jumping matters. That if a DM agrees with the players reasons for jumping - the character takes standard falling damage. If not, instant death is the result.

THAT'S what I have a problem with.

Let's say that there is a running wood chipper blocking the character's path. The player decides his character will dive through the wood chipper to get to the other side. Assuming the character doesn't have super powers that would enable this, I would warn the player that doing so would result in their character exiting the the other side as a very dead red mist. It doesn't matter how many HP you have, you can't pass through an active wood chipper and survive.

That's an old school approach. Tomb of Horrors, for example, is filled with situations where if the PC so much as walks in the wrong direction - instant death.

5e has shied away from it. Generally DCs and damage are assigned.

If a standard 5e adventure had a woodchipper, for example, it would likely did a bunch of damage (say 10d6) - with the reasoning that 10d6 would kill any regular joe. But that a high level adventurer could figure out a way through it - damaged but not likely killed.

Based on the fact that high level adventureres are not, in fact, average joes.

Most likely it's a simple misunderstanding. The player thought it was a death trap they could parkour their way through, whereas it is actually a guaranteed death unless disabled. But there are some players out there who think of HP as a force field or ablative dermal reinforcement. Those players literally think their high level character should be able to dive through a wood chipper and just take some HP damage. At my table, however that's not how it works, and I would make that clear.

It's your game, play how you like. Especially as long as you're consistent about it.

That said, 5e was built upon the assumption that magic items aren't required. As such, you can't assume their existence, even in a high level game (although I agree that most games do use them). Additionally, I strongly disagree that HP are representative of something like an indestructible magic shield:

A) not every high level character has a magic shield. I'm fairly generous regarding magic items IMCs with the exception of shields and armor, which I am downright miserly about.

B) if you take away a high level character's gear (he's captured by powerful enemies and stripped) his HP don't change one whit. That says to me that his HP have no direct relationship to his gear.

I'm not actually arguing that HP have any relationship to gear. A PC could jump naked, or not, and falling damage should be the same (obviously not counting items that actually mitigate falling damage).

The "magic shield" thing was just a (bit muddled) attempt at saying you can explain the lack of instant death by saying a high level character can maximise use of gear at hand. But, it's nut necessary - and muddles the issue.

Additionally, Captain America has superpowers that put him well above non-powered humans in terms of physical abilities. He may not be the Hulk, but he can do and survive things that an unpowered individual simply cannot. I'm pretty sure that very same movie opens with Cap lapping Falcon multiple times while on his morning run. Falcon is no slouch, assisting Cap during the climax of the movie, but we wouldn't expect him to be able to do or survive the things Cap can.

I'd argue that high level PCs, ones that can take a hit from a cloud giant or survive an ancient dragon's breath weapon - are much closer to Captain America than Falcon.

But again, that's not really the issue. There's no question that a high level fighter has the HP to survive a 200 foot fall. The issue I have a problem with, is A DM deciding to not apply the falling rules because they don't like the player's reason for having the character jump.

 

[Helldritch]

I'm not actually arguing that HP have any relationship to gear. A PC could jump naked, or not, and falling damage should be the same (obviously not counting items that actually mitigate falling damage).

The "magic shield" thing was just a (bit muddled) attempt at saying you can explain the lack of instant death by saying a high level character can maximise use of gear at hand. But, it's nut necessary - and muddles the issue.



I'd argue that high level PCs, ones that can take a hit from a cloud giant or survive an ancient dragon's breath weapon - are much closer to Captain America than Falcon.

This is where I disagree with you. The PCs are not hit by the giants, they're grazed. They somehow dodged the ancient dragon's breath. The average Joe just take the hit and becomes jello. The average Joe is roasted like an over cooked kebab.
HP are not a force field. HP are not stamina. HP are not physical for the most part (I'd even say that anything higher than 4 hp is related to luck, fate and favors of the gods). A human (or whatever PC race) does not have as much resilience as a horse. HP are a combination of luck, fate and the favors of the gods.

The PC falling the cliff for a good reason will have luck, fate and the favor of his god(s) on his side. A tree growing on the cliff will slow his fall just a wee bit. Thick bushes at the bottom will slow his fall again or may be there will be a small pond/stream with just enough current and water depth so that the hero will survive. The average Joe won't have that chance and if he has, will not survive either way.

But again, that's not really the issue. There's no question that a high level fighter has the HP to survive a 200 foot fall. The issue I have a problem with, is A DM deciding to not apply the falling rules because they don't like the player's reason for having the character jump.

Again see the above and previous posts. A player making his character committing suicide his denying his fate, luck and the gods' favors. Without this protection, he is just the average Joe. This is akin to the samurai commiting sepuku. I want to do my sepuku but I have 200 hp... It will take me 27 attemps with my ceremonial knife (1d4 +5 = 7.5 average damage...) to succede. Is it logical? Of course not. The same goes with falling. Falling such a height for a heroic reason will give your character the plot armor/shield that luck, fate and favor of the gods provide. Otherwise, you're on you own, just like the average Joe.

This is a case of specific beats general. Logic here is the specific. The DM is entirely entitled to dictate how the gods will react to a suicidal action. In this case they will do nothing.

On the other hand, if the DM does not warn the player about this, then is it is bad DMing and the player has all the justifications needed to be angry and frustrated.

If the DM warns the player and he has his character going this way anyways, then the player should accept the verdict, his character is quite dead.

 

[jaelis]

The PC falling the cliff for a good reason will have luck, fate and the favor of his god(s) on his side. A tree growing on the cliff will slow his fall just a wee bit. Thick bushes at the bottom will slow his fall again or may be there will be a small pond/stream with just enough current and water depth so that the hero will survive. The average Joe won't have that chance and if he has, will not survive either way.

I don't myself have any disagreement with this. The difference is that I'm willing to assume players have good reasons for what they want to do, unless something specifically suggests otherwise. I don't feel any need to grill a player about the details of their motivations if it isn't central to the action.