D&D 5E Hex Shenanigans

[Arial Black]

You are way too emotionally attached to your stance on this. Hope you are having fun because you totally missed the intended humor in my post.

I'll hold my hands up; I totally missed the intended humour.

Maybe if the other posters who are saying the same thing weren't being completely serious I would have spotted your intention.

My bad.

 

[Arial Black]

True, but it was also technically completely within the rules of the game, based on already established rules for creatures and the feats that the character had chosen.
A DM ruling that the bag of rats trick wouldn't work "would be changing the way the world works", "applying different rules based on the motives of the character" and similar criticisms that we have seen already levelled against such a hypothetical DM in this thread.

I think that the majority of people in the thread would agree that this hypothetical situation is an exploit, and that it is part of the duties of the DM to rein in that sort of thing before it disrupts the game too much.
So they have to make a ruling that changes existing rules mid-campaign, and which applies based upon the motives of the player.

Where each DM draws that line between "legitimate application of the rules" and "immersion-shattering exploit" is going to vary.

When a character throws themselves off a cliff, DMs are going to make a judgement call. Some DMs are going to check if the character does anything to mitigate the fall, like trying to catch themselves or aiming for a soft-looking rock. If they don't, the DM might rule that HP damage is not the best reflection of that situation. The concept that HP can represent luck, divine favour, and survival instincts has long been part of D&D, making this a perfectly legitimate ruling by the DM.

Other DMs might just apply the standard falling rules irrespective of the intentions of the character and simply apply the standard number of d6 in HP damage, possibly modified by the surface that they are falling onto. - This is also a perfectly legitimate ruling by the DM.

I agree with you.

If the DM asked me why I was jumping off a cliff, and then went with my answer (trying to survive=roll falling damage normally, trying to commit suicide=auto-death) then no-one in this thread on either side would bat an eyelid.

Unfortunately we have DMs on this thread openly bragging that they would change the way the world works and auto-kill the PC even when the player says they are trying to live.

 

[Arial Black]

Let me get this straight. You think that a character (without super toughness) should be able to dive 200 feet head first onto rocks and survive? That doesn't strike you as remotely implausible? Or outright impossible?

It's been said many times that high level D&D PCs ARE superhuman! We KNOW that high level PCs are intended to be tough enough to survive such a fall, because the rules for falling and the rules for the hit points of high level PCs demonstrate that they can indeed survive such a fall.

It is my belief that the rules don't cover suicidal actions. Saying that the HP rules don't apply to suicidal actions isn't unfair or arbitrary.

If the player is trying to commit suicide, cool.

If the player explicitly is trying to survive the fall and expects the DM to use the same falling damage rules for him as he does for every other creature, then it's simply dishonest to pretend that they ARE trying to commit suicide and auto-kill them on that dishonest basis.

 

[Fanaelialae]

It's been said many times that high level D&D PCs ARE superhuman! We KNOW that high level PCs are intended to be tough enough to survive such a fall, because the rules for falling and the rules for the hit points of high level PCs demonstrate that they can indeed survive such a fall.


If the player is trying to commit suicide, cool.

If the player explicitly is trying to survive the fall and expects the DM to use the same falling damage rules for him as he does for every other creature, then it's simply dishonest to pretend that they ARE trying to commit suicide and auto-kill them on that dishonest basis.

Superhuman in the sense of Batman perhaps. To me and my table, the idea of a high level PC as Superman (at least until his HP run out, when he reverts to mere man) is quite absurd.

Batman can survive things that no ordinary human could, but he is still fundamentally human. If he falls 200' onto rocks we'd expect him to use his cape to glide or use his grappling hook to swing, but in the absence of those factors we'd reasonably expect him to die or at least be seriously injured by such a fall.

I've said that I would auto kill a PC undertaking a suicidal action (such as swan diving 200' onto rocks). If you're actually doing something to try to survive, then I would evaluate it on that basis. But don't tell me you're swan diving and also claim that you are trying to survive, because those are counter to each other.

 

[jaelis]

I've said that I would auto kill a PC undertaking a suicidal action (such as swan diving 200' onto rocks). If you're actually doing something to try to survive, then I would evaluate it on that basis. But don't tell me you're swan diving and also claim that you are trying to survive, because those are counter to each other.

At what point did someone say they were swan diving? The original concept was just "jumping off a cliff."

 

[billd91]

At what point did someone say they were swan diving? The original concept was just "jumping off a cliff."

And what does part of "jumping off a cliff" includes mitigation to keep from dying from the fall other than relying on a large store of hit points (a metagame concept the PC should have no knowledge of)?

 

[jaelis]

Or maybe this is what you're really after? "Dang the BBEG is down at the bottom of the 200 ft chasm, getting away! I'm going to try to hop down the side of the cliff, landing on footholds where I can, but getting to the bottom as fast as possible." vs "I'm going to jump down the cliff and catch him."

So its really just the language that people are using that you're worried about, not the actions per se?

 

[Mort]

I've said that I would auto kill a PC undertaking a suicidal action (such as swan diving 200' onto rocks). If you're actually doing something to try to survive, then I would evaluate it on that basis. But don't tell me you're swan diving and also claim that you are trying to survive, because those are counter to each other.

See, to me this just seems like wasted effort on the DMs part. Why should I care why the PC jumped off a cliff? The character suffers the consequences for jumping off the cliff and that's it (Heck, if it's a monk they may not take any damage anyway)

If the player tells me they're doing it to commit character suicide - that's different.

If a player is doing it to be disruptive - that's also different and a completely out of game problem (I've had this happen once is 30+ years, the player was drunk and clearly trying to be disruptive -had to handle that out of game).

 

[Helldritch]

None of that makes sense in the context of this thread.

So you say. I say otherwise and so are you in some other posts. I will not go down the search for quotes for 29+ pages. Find them.

No-one is trying to kill themselves. Asking the player who is about to jump "Are you trying to kill yourself?", they answer "No, I'm trying to take as little damage on the way down as possible", and you responding "Okay, you obviously are trying to kill yourself, so..." is a jerk move.

The has been brought up. Of course if the character is trying to survive worst, he is obviously not commiting suicide. I would rule that his hp will work normally.

There IS a specific; hex works like it says it works. There is NO specific that says it doesn't work on chickens or rats.

According to the rules, the spiders that DO attack you ARE monsters, and all monsters ARE creatures. The ones that don't attack you (such that they don't even get a stat block) ARE creatures but are NOT monsters.

These are the specifics.

Wrong. But that is my POV. The above is yours. I am perfectly right at my table. You are at yours. For the sake of the argument: "I would allow the chicken and the bag of rat. I don't even mind at all this "cheat or game" as some others are saying." But they are within their rights to say no. If it is not in the monster manual, it is not a creature as every creatures are in the MM monsters, animals, abherations etc... Chickens are not there. BUT if you want Abyssal Chickens in your bag...

Until chickens are added to a MM they are not creatures that is RAW. But is it RAI? As I have said earlier. I would gladly allow the chicken shenanigan. I would then roll on the random encounter table section "0 encounter for the day. (very hard to deadly encounter)" if said player really insist on taking a short rest before or after breakfast. It would probably be my players that would yell a resounding NO WAY!

Unfortunately we have DMs on this thread openly bragging that they would change the way the world works and auto-kill the PC even when the player says they are trying to live.

No, that is entirely wrong. We are not saying this at all. If the character wants to live but see no other choice, HP applies and it is universally agreed upon. A player that makes a character jumps for the for the fun of it, is just making his character take on a suicidal path. That is what we are talking about from the begining. If you want to quote, good. But quote fully and not partially. From the begining we have this discussion about a character jumping off from a cliff. That is suicidal. The horde was added later when it was seen that under special circumstances a character could survive.

It's been said many times that high level D&D PCs ARE superhuman! We KNOW that high level PCs are intended to be tough enough to survive such a fall, because the rules for falling and the rules for the hit points of high level PCs demonstrate that they can indeed survive such a fall.

Unfortunately they are not. They are favored by the gods, fate or whatever. They do what they do because they are heroes. But if they want to kill themselves, they will die. It is not hard to understand. Who are you to stop somebody to have his character comit suicide? Be a good DM and let him die. He's dying for it!

 

[Mort]

And what does part of "jumping off a cliff" includes mitigation to keep from dying from the fall other than relying on a large store of hit points (a metagame concept the PC should have no knowledge of)?

Ever seen the end of the elevator scene in Captain America Winter Soldier? It's like that.

I'm not going to link to it (copyright issues - it's probably fair use but not going to).