Hextor and Heironeous's common parent?

[Moon_Goddess]

Any you'll consider a fansite canon before you will WOTC!!!!!!



That's just mindboggling,

When it comes down to it, you have to face one fact, (As much as I hate to say it) If you looking for true Canon, only EGG has the answer, and since he has said on these very boards that he never made a creation myth for the origin of Oerth, The real answer is, Hextor and Heironoeus have no mother, and no father, they are simply brothers becuase that's what the book says.

 

[NLP]

Any you'll consider a fansite canon before you will WOTC!!!!!!

That's just mindboggling,

Do people on these boards have problems reading?

Let me say it a third time. Tal Meta has an interesting write-up on the Greyhawk Gods on his website. Within his pantheonic write-ups he has made Erythnul their father.

Now, nowhere in the above sentence did I say it was canon, or did I say I considered it canon. I just said that it is an interesting write-up.

As far as WotC canon goes, should I now assume that Heironeous uses the sword? Or that St. Cuthbert is the god of retribution? I think not. WotC's canon is based on whim and perceived profitability, not continuity or applied logic.


There is lots of canon. There is the canon EGG wrote 20 years ago. These is the canon Moore, Sargent, Reynolds, Cook and others who have followed have written. Then finally there is the canon that the fans, who have a much greater vested interest in the game world, have written. All are equally valid or invalid depending on my perception of Greyhawk.

 

[Green Knight]

Any you'll consider a fansite canon before you will WOTC!!!!!!



That's just mindboggling

This Tal Meta site is fanfic? Then why're we even having this discussion?

But you see, I did not say Alia was their mother. I said Tal Meta has an interesting write-up making Erythnul their father. Those are two entirely different things.

And I could say Vecna is their mother. That's worth about as much as whatever this Tal Meta thing is worth, as far as this conversation is concerned.

Also, no Greyhawker would consider Chainmail canon just because it was published by WotC; especially considering that it flies in the face of other pieces of canon as far as the Oerth. But to each his own.

Oh? So have you taken a poll of Greyhawk players? Do you know this for a fact, or are you just guessing? And how does it contradict established canon? Now granted, I don't know much about Greyhawk, but if it's NEVER been stated who their parents are is, then Chainmail saying that Stern Alia is their mother doesn't contradict anything, therefore, it doesn't "fly in the face" of anything.

Let me just state again that Tal Meta has a very interesting cosmology involving the Greyhawk Gods. If you are looking for a way to have it all make sense, then I suggest you read it.

As the above poster said, you accept fanfic over what's actually been printed? If you do, then that's fine for your game. But that's not what this discussion is about.

especially considering that it flies in the face of other pieces of canon as far as the Oerth

For someone who's so concerned about supposed canon violations by one WoTC product, you seem pretty willing to use a non-canonical source as if it were any kind of an authority on the matter. And that's fine for your own game. But this discussion is about what's canon. Whatever Tal Meta or whomever has to say on the subject isn't worth dinky doo if it contradicts something which IS canon, which the Chainmail books are. So unless you can find something that's actually been produced by TSR or WoTC which contradicts the bit about Stern Alia being their mother, then she's their mother. That's canon. Doesn't matter if some fansite says otherwise, because we're not talking about fan-made concoctions.

 

[Moon_Goddess]

NPL, I don't think this conversation will go anywhere as you seem to have a different definition of the word "canon" than I if you believe there can be multiple versions, I'm just going to say I always consider the original author canon, in all things and nothing else, and then I'll politely back out of this conversation.

 

[Thebalor]

Uh...who is stern alia? Some overgod of order?

 

[Desdichado]

Do people on these boards have problems reading?

Yes. Quite often. However, in this case, I think the problem is that you're not communicating clearly.

As far as WotC canon goes, should I now assume that Heironeous uses the sword? Or that St. Cuthbert is the god of retribution? I think not. WotC's canon is based on whim and perceived profitability, not continuity or applied logic.

I hate to be the one to point it out to you (actually, that's not true, I do take a kind of perverse relish in doing so) but Heironeous using an axe certianly isn't "applied logic." WotC's canon is no more based on whim than any other fictional pantheon. Nor can I see what percieved profitability has to do with the Greyhawk pantheon, especially as we're talking about something that's so obscure that no D&D publication (3e at least) even addresses the question. Where's the profitability equation in that?

There is lots of canon. There is the canon EGG wrote 20 years ago. These is the canon Moore, Sargent, Reynolds, Cook and others who have followed have written. Then finally there is the canon that the fans, who have a much greater vested interest in the game world, have written. All are equally valid or invalid depending on my perception of Greyhawk.

As Inigo Montoya sorta said, "You keep using that word canon. I do not think you know what that means." Not only that, I hate to point this out to you as well (see above) but nobody really much cares which works about Greyhawk are valid canon "depending on your perception of Greyhawk.

 

[Deedlit]

Where can I find this Tal Meta's write-up?

 

[NLP]

This Tal Meta site is fanfic? Then why're we even having this discussion?

Because the original question was:

"Can anyone tell me if it has ever been said who their parent's are? I've always thought it might be St. Cuthbert (for the super lawful-ness) and then either yondalla/ehlonna for heironeous, and Lolth/Wee Jas for Hextor."

And my answer was:

"In Tal Meta's excellent write-up of the Greyhawk Gods, he has Erythnul being the boy's parents; and that seems to make sense to me.

I believer there is a link to Tal's material on the Canonfire website, if you cannot find it there then do a search for "Tal Meta" on Google. It will turn up."

No mention of canon was made, anywhere. The asker wanted to know if there was any information about the brothers. I was relaying that there was some interesting information at the above mentioned site.

You, and the cronies who followed, are the only ones screaming about how it is not canon. I have not said it was canon. I said it was interesting. Much of Greyhawk's material, including such things as Ivid the Undying, is not "official" canon. Official canon changes depending on the whim of whomever is in charge at WotC this week.

Today, Chainmail is canon, but that does not mean that three years from now when WotC produces a sucessful miniatures game that the canon will not be changed; or that the folks in Living Greyhawk will not change the material because of an adventure they have decided to write.

Oh? So have you taken a poll of Greyhawk players? Do you know this for a fact, or are you just guessing? And how does it contradict established canon? Now granted, I don't know much about Greyhawk, but if it's NEVER been stated who their parents are is, then Chainmail saying that Stern Alia is their mother doesn't contradict anything, therefore, it doesn't "fly in the face" of anything.

Spend an hour on Greytalk, or go through the archives. You will find hundreds of posts from Gary Gygax, Erik Mona, Roger Moore, Gary Holian, Sean Reynolds, Lisa Stevens, and a slew of other "professionals" who have given their opinions on different aspects of Greyhawk. Better yet, attend a couple of the chats and see what the real "professionals" have to say.

As the above poster said, you accept fanfic over what's actually been printed? If you do, then that's fine for your game. But that's not what this discussion is about.

That was what this discussion was about. You are the one who wants to know about published canon. The original poster just wanted information; which is what I was giving him.

There are hundreds of Gigs of Greyhawk material on the web, much of it written by professionals. Erik Mona's "Reflections in Silica: Sulm and Itar" is not canon, though it probably one of the best pieces of material you will ever find on those ancient kingdoms.

You need to realize that the only Greyhawk material being produced is done by the Triads through LGH, but that does not mean that the professionals have stopped writing it, it just means that they write it as fanfiction. Most of the material in EGG's novels is not canon, but I know few Hawkers who would not consider it to be.

 

[NLP]

Where can I find this Tal Meta's write-up?

I believe there is a link to it from the Canonfire site. www.canonfire.com

If you cannot find it there, I suggest doing a search for it on www.google.com .

 

[NLP]

I hate to be the one to point it out to you (actually, that's not true, I do take a kind of perverse relish in doing so) but Heironeous using an axe certianly isn't "applied logic." WotC's canon is no more based on whim than any other fictional pantheon. Nor can I see what percieved profitability has to do with the Greyhawk pantheon, especially as we're talking about something that's so obscure that no D&D publication (3e at least) even addresses the question. Where's the profitability equation in that?

The switch from axe to sword is applied logic. WotC wanted a knight's God who used a sword, not an axe, so the canon was changed to fit the style of play WotC wanted. This was done for economic reasons, to make the God more appealing to gamers, and thus making the game slightly more profitable.