"HF" vs. "S&S" gaming: the underlying reason of conflict and change in D&D

[WayneLigon]

You deny ANY kind of influence of the literary genres on the game??

I think any significant influence has long since been diluted to the point of uselessness. Obviously the game has roots in both HF and S&S, as well as historical/fantasy like King Arthur and Robin hood, but really they're more like homages than real influences, and even they've taken a far back seat to 'being D&D'. Even in the early days of The Dragon is was pretty obvious that D&D was well on the path to being 'it's own thing', it's own brand of fantasy.

Just for example: If S&S was a true influence on D&D, then we wouldn't be playing spellcasters: almost all the spellcasters in classic S&S are evil npc-types. There would be no divide between mage and priest, either; Conan and other sources from that time use the terms interchangably. We'd have had something like Iron Heroes from the get-go.

 

[Zulgyan]

Now we're getting somewhere.

I've been wondering all along what the existence of one or more gods in the setting/novel/game/real world had to do with this discussion at all.

That said, the Force itself in SW-land is not much more than a tool - albeit a really imposing one - used by agents of both Good and Evil (and by agents of neither) en route to attempting to achieve their ends. In fact, the SW universe follows your idea, that Absolute Good and Absolute Evil reside in mortals rather than anything higher.

Lanefan

We should take into account that many HF authors are Tolkien imitators. They may have "watered down" the Catholic influence on their novels, but the most basic premises are still there, maybe weakened, but still there.

 

[Zulgyan]

I think any significant influence has long since been diluted to the point of uselessness. Obviously the game has roots in both HF and S&S, as well as historical/fantasy like King Arthur and Robin hood, but really they're more like homages than real influences, and even they've taken a far back seat to 'being D&D'. Even in the early days of The Dragon is was pretty obvious that D&D was well on the path to being 'it's own thing', it's own brand of fantasy.

Just for example: If S&S was a true influence on D&D, then we wouldn't be playing spellcasters: almost all the spellcasters in classic S&S are evil npc-types. There would be no divide between mage and priest, either; Conan and other sources from that time use the terms interchangably. We'd have had something like Iron Heroes from the get-go.

What about the novels of Jack Vance?? He's protagonists are spell casters.

Also, keep in mind that Conan himself (in "Beyond the Black River") uses a bit of sorcery.

The Gray Mouser was a mage apprentice at the beggining of the series too. And uses some magic in the course of his adventures.

 

[Krensky]

You deny ANY kind of influence of the literary genres on the game??

No, I deny that D&D rules are (as distinct from the games people play with those rules) belong to any particular genre, unless "Gygax, Arneson, et. al. thought this was cool" counts as a genre. OD&D was influenced by an insane hodgepodge of historical, speculative, and classical literature. It's not HF, it's not SF, it's not S&S, or any other genre of it's source material. It's all of them and none of them. It's D&D, a genre unto itself.

Arguably, D&D has influenced modern S&S and HF far more the the reverse. The Deed of Paksinarrion came about because Elizbeth Moon was annoyed at how people played Paladins. The Record of the Lodoss War series is a novelization of Ryo Mizuno's D&D campaign. There are other examples, but that's off the top of my head.

We should take into account that many HF authors are Tolkien imitators. They may have "watered down" the Catholic influence on their novels, but the most basic premises are still there, maybe weakened, but still there.

Mercades Lackey and others would disagree. Well, when they aren't hanging a hat on it in the Heirs of Alexandria series.

What about the novels of Jack Vance?? He's protagonists are spell casters.

Also, keep in mind that Conan himself (in "Beyond the Black River") uses a bit of sorcery.

The Gray Mouser was a mage apprentice at the beggining of the series too. And uses some magic in the course of his adventures.

Most of Vance's work is Science Fiction. Dying Earth is Science Fantasy not Sword and Sorcery, and Lyoness is High Fantasy (although it might be Science Fantasy since there's some implication that it takes place in the same universe as the Dying Earth books).

It has been a very long time since I read Conan and they tend to blend together, but Conan doesn't use sorcery, he uses an Elder Sign analog to delay the forces of his enemy.

I never read the Lahnkmar stories, but WayneLigon was slightly off. It's not that magic is the purvue of the villians, it's that it's something unatural. It has a cost and most of it is not particualrly useful when an angry swordsman charges you. Mouser, to my understanding, looks and acts nothing like a D&D wizard.

 

[Zulgyan]

Yes, D&D had influences from almost any kind of source.

But, in the D&D version published in 1974, the underlying worldview and morals of the world that the rules present, shares a lot with the S&S genre.

 

[Remathilis]

False. It plays like a role playing game.

True and true. Random character death is a possibility and "myth creation" is not one of the goals expressed or implied.

While I don't necessarily agree that D&D is a perfect vessel for "myth creation", you can't deny there is a strong appeal to use it as such, and the game should be able to supply such an experience as easily as it can supply a "life is cheap, save vs. poison" experience?

 

[Zulgyan]

Why "D&D should also provide myth creation"? There are lots of other games out there better suited.

 

[Remathilis]

That said, the Force itself in SW-land is not much more than a tool - albeit a really imposing one - used by agents of both Good and Evil (and by agents of neither) en route to attempting to achieve their ends. In fact, the SW universe follows your idea, that Absolute Good and Absolute Evil reside in mortals rather than anything higher.

Actually, that can get dicey...

The Force as originally conceived in SW IV: A New Hope is much more of a force of "good" that allows free-will (users can chose to fall to the dark side at any time) but also controls the user's action (hence the emphasis on prophecy/destiny) but Lucas (in many of his interviews) specifically tried to keep the Light Side and the Dark Side as "separate" voices which speak to a Force User unconsciously and try to influence him one way or the other.

That gets VERY convoluted when you enter the Expanded Universe, with the concept of the Unified Force (in a nutshell: there is no light/dark, there is the Force, and how a person uses it makes it light/dark). Lucas has for the most part ignored it (and some EU contradicts the idea) but its inclusion allows for a more S&S styled "individual morality, Force a tool" method of looking at it.

So depending on how you look at it (and what sources your citing) the Force can be EITHER an absolute good/evil force OR an immoral tool of which human morality can be imposed. The former tells a better HF morality play, the latter opens the door to concepts like Imperial Knights (Jedi not dedicated to the Order but to a government) and Force traditions which are neither good nor evil.

 

[Remathilis]

Why "D&D should also provide myth creation"? There are lots of other games out there better suited.

Why should Toyota provide a pick-up truck when there are plenty of other car companies that do so?

Brand name.

D&D's name is synonymous with RPGs in a way countless other fantasy heartbreakers aren't. The owners of the IP (as early as Dragonlance, and perhaps eariler with the Realms) figured out there is a strong vein of players who want to merge the conflict resolution and fantasy hodge-podge of D&D with the "high-fantasy" concepts of THEIR favorite literature (or media).

As you pointed out, D&D has changed thematic elements since its inception. It would have been left to the dustbin of history if there wasn't enough people interested in the changes to continue supporting it. (Or, to put it another way, if the tropes of HF weren't popular, the game's flavor wouldn't have changed, and we wouldn't be having this discussion).

 

[Zulgyan]

Krensky wrote:

Except that none of those (well, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly sort of is) are really westerns. They're samurai films with deserts and guns. Fundamentally they have more in common with Erol Flynn then

So here you accept that the common tropes are not really what define the genre??