Hiding & Sniping

[Yair]

Why snipe?

The SRD says "It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking". Sniping also imposes -20 to Hide, but also takes a move action, allows you to make only one attack, and has further limitations (must be 10 feet away). Why use it? Going by the first line, a person hiding behind a boulder say could make an attack and then hide as part of a move action (perhaps dodging to another boulder, perhaps going back and forth to hide behind the same boulder...). Isn't that precisely "hid[ing] while attacking"? He then isn't limited to 10 feet, and can move if he wants to.

I think hiding while attacking should be doable. It's a fun image. To do so, though, I would require to be in a place she can hide in while making the attack. In this case, she can attempt to hide while attacking with the -20 penalty as per the rules.

This does mean however that the option of sniping is now obsolete. There is a contradiction between the rules there.

Another option is to forgo the "hide while attacking" bit, which makes sniping a cool option and denies certain "sneak-attack with effective invisibility" scenarios.

Hide (Dex; Armor Check Penalty)
Check

Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large -4, Huge -8, Gargantuan -12, Colossal -16.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.
Sniping

If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.
Creating a Diversion to Hide

You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

See also: epic usages of Hide.
Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Special

If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.

If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks.

A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17th-level ranger can do this even while being observed.

 

[mikebr99]

Sniping is the mechanic for ranged fire from a hidden position... and melee combat while hidden is covered Complete Adventurer.

Mike

 

[roguerouge]

Sniping's utterly doable. Combine Far Shot with range penalties to spot (PhB, 83). So, sniping (shoot and hide) with a composite longbow 330 feet away leads to: -2 to hit on one attack, Hide -20 vs. Spot -33. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Even without the feat, it's just -4 to hit instead.

The -20 to Hide is to make it slightly possible for the pin cushion to see the pin coming.

 

[mikebr99]

Sniping's utterly doable. Combine Far Shot with range penalties to spot (PhB, 83). So, sniping (shoot and hide) with a composite longbow 330 feet away leads to: -2 to hit on one attack, Hide -20 vs. Spot -33. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Even without the feat, it's just -4 to hit instead.

The -20 to Hide is to make it slightly possible for the pin cushion to see the pin coming.

Except that sneak attack only applies within 30ft. ... 60ft. with a crossbow and the feat from phbII.

Mike

 

[TheGogmagog]

Except that sneak attack only applies within 30ft. ... 60ft. with a crossbow and the feat from phbII.

Mike

If sneak attack is your goal, then bluff (feint) is what you want. Any ranged weapon with the improved feint feat. With either method you still need to figure out a way to prevent the target from charging your position.

If I recall, you always know what direction you were attacked from. I don't know for sure if that's a rule or our groups consensus on 'common sense'. Figuring out where the cover is shouldn't be insurmountable.

 

[roguerouge]

Sniping's not synonymous with sneak attack to my mind. Sure, sneak attack's nice, but the range limitation you cite is precisely why it doesn't fit the modern analogy of the lone gunman with a sniper's rifle. Sniping's all about the long distance. If you want the instant kill with arrows AND not be seen AND not be an instant target for retribution, I guess you'll have to put Con poison on those arrows or imbue them with magic.

You can't have everything when it comes to sniping. If you did, you'd have a very lethal game of hide and spot for virtually any combat with humanoids. And a very dull game.

 

[mikebr99]

If sneak attack is your goal, then bluff (feint) is what you want. Any ranged weapon with the improved feint feat. With either method you still need to figure out a way to prevent the target from charging your position.

If I recall, you always know what direction you were attacked from. I don't know for sure if that's a rule or our groups consensus on 'common sense'. Figuring out where the cover is shouldn't be insurmountable.

Feinting in combat is for melee weapons only.

Feinting in Combat: You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add
its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.
If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
Feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a –4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a –8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.
Feinting in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Mike

 

[heirodule]

There's a spell in spell comendium, sniper's shot, that lets you IIRC, ignore range penalties and sneak more than 30 feet away.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

The RAW doesn't handle sniping very well, they emphasize melee combat. Probably because of the infrequency with which most campaigns ever spring a fight on open terrain at ranges of more than a hundred feet or so.

If you want to make sniping more reasonable you have to do more than just add in a few house rules you need to adjust the way you handle encounters. It means you'll need to increase the range at which encounters begin and spread combatants out significantly. Move Silently and Hide skills become more important and this has to be shown to the players so they'll consider it a higher priority for their character's skill points even if it wouldn't normally be for their character class or concept.

But for the house rules end there are a few things you can do. 1.) change Sneak Attack-by RAW its a melee optimized special attack ranged use is subpar. So you could extend the range to a single range increment from 30ft and have a feet chain dedicated to extending its range. Or you can eliminate the range limitation and reword it so that it only works when the target is unaware. Both have their down-sides. 2.) The problem with hiding and attacking, the RAW aren't very good that simple. A very simple house rule to fix it for ranged attacks is this. Ranged Attacks From Hiding: A character who has hidden may make a ranged attack, enemies must succeed on a spot check versus the result of the hide check made by the attacker and gain a +8 bonus to their check due to the disturbance in the hide created by the attack.

 

[mikebr99]

There's a spell in spell comendium, sniper's shot, that lets you IIRC, ignore range penalties and sneak more than 30 feet away.

It just allows you to "sneak attack regardless of the distance between you and your target."
It's a swift action spell... lasting 1 round.

Mike