Hiding the PHB from players - Cool or Restrictive?

[Spinachcat]

NB, none of the players will be buying the core rule books so it will be their first introduction to 4th ed.

Shabe, your poll doesn't work because of this sentence and it negates most of the whining noises on this thread too.

If you are the only person with book, then it doesn't make sense to hold up your game waiting for your incredibly cheap "friends" to pass the book around and read it at whatever pace they like. Welcome to your first game in October. Ask them what race + class combo they want, go make it and start playing.

Players who have not bought their own books are players without rights to make demands. The PHB is $30 bucks, utter chump change for anyone who isn't homeless. I bet they spend more on junk food in a week.

 

[NewfieDave]

No one can win D&D (I feel that the word Game in RPG is some what of a misnomer as it suggests winning) so whats the point in making your character the best, by encouraging power gaming (not saying that viewing the PHB before hand especially encourages this) you are, as you put it "well done you've taken some of the r out or rpg."

I agree that power gaming just for the sake of "winning D&D" is pointless, but min/maxing is inherent to any gaming system. I don't try to break the game or build an unstoppable force when I create a character, but I do try to make decisions that are optimal for my character's goals. I want my characters to be effective, and that requires a certain amount of min/maxing.

Min/maxing and roleplaying are mutally exclusive. Stereotypical "power gamers who can't roleplay" have simply given all power gamers a bad name. One guy in our group is a huge power gamer (loves the char op boards) but he's roleplayed some of our group's favorite characters.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

This thread is bad, the poll is bad, and you, OP, should feel bad.

 

[AtomicPope]

The players need to know their characters. It makes the game faster and more enjoyable. Without the PHB they're guessing everytime they play. It's not a sense of wonder but a lack of direction.

The MM is a different story. If players want to metagame the monsters then they're just going to ruin it for themselves, and potentially everybody.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Sounds like a fun experience, not for an extended campaign, though. As a player, I would have a lot of fun figuring out my character without any help of the rules. You surely would need a relation of trust between the players and the DM, and someone with a good grasp of what his players are up to, but it could end up being very interesting.

I had a DM once who kept the math from the game hidden from the players as much as possible. You couldn't know, for example, how much damage your character could sustain and how much he had already taken. You had to figure out based on the descriptions given. It was an interesting and weird approach at the same time; not something detrimental to my own playing experience, but not something I'd use in my own game.

Cheers,

 

[small pumpkin man]

I've played under a GM who liked to do something similar to this occasionally (allthough not to this extent), it was one of his more irritating habits. When I'm playing a game I want to know what the implyed setting is, and I want to know what my characters options are, all it ever resulted in was annoyance and confusion, not "wonder".

Shabe, your poll doesn't work because of this sentence and it negates most of the whining noises on this thread too.

If you are the only person with book, then it doesn't make sense to hold up your game waiting for your incredibly cheap "friends" to pass the book around and read it at whatever pace they like. Welcome to your first game in October. Ask them what race + class combo they want, go make it and start playing.

Players who have not bought their own books are players without rights to make demands. The PHB is $30 bucks, utter chump change for anyone who isn't homeless. I bet they spend more on junk food in a week.

Nonsense. After the first couple of sessions you will never need more than two PHBs, are rarely need more than one. The idea that people unwilling $40 on every system the DM wants to run don't get to understand the rules is silly.

 

[Shado]

Well I've been reading this forum for the past few weeks now and I'm getting quite excited about 4th ED, I'm intending on running the published modules/adventures as the only other game I ran was a homebrew setting and I don't intend on putting that amount of hours into a setting again.

So to the core of my quesiton, I want 4th ED to be brand spanking new and exciting, I want players to marvel at each others powers as they see them iron tide/hunter quarry/misty step for the first time, hopefully invoking gasps of wow thats cool. I want the players not to play something because its a min maxed combination of powers that will be vastly overpowered and then add a rp reason and background to it after.

I'm intending to let my players know the races available, the classes available and also the roles of those classes, with a blurb out bits of the races and classes and then let the PHB powers and stuff be known after.

I'm throwing the question out here to test the water basically, would this sound good to you or is this a stifling of the players rights?

NB, none of the players will be buying the core rule books so it will be their first introduction to 4th ed.

I might just beat you if you tried to hide the PHB me.

I might just beat you if you tried to hide it from anyone.

This question fills me with violence.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Its called PHB so Players may look into it, but: I maybe let them roll their stats and assign them first, before they know exactly what they mechanically do.

 

[Olfactatron]

I might just beat you if you tried to hide the PHB me.

I might just beat you if you tried to hide it from anyone.

This question fills me with violence.

Seconded.
Withholding rules from players reminds me of some sort of fascist dictatorship.
"There are rules you have to abide by but we aren't going to let you see them." How the hell are you supposed to play a game like that?
I can just imagine it.

PC "I draw my and shoot bow at him"
DM "That provokes an opportunity attack"
PC "Oh ok, I won't do that then. I draw my sword and attack"
DM "You already used your minor action this turn"
PC "When?"
DM "When you drew your bow"
PC "Ok, what can I do?"
DM "You can drop your bow as a free action and use your move action to draw your sword and your standard action to attack."
PC "...You want to just play this character for me?"

 

[theNater]

My suggestion would be to give them the (fluff) descriptions of the classes and races first, and get them thinking about what sounds interesting. Then, give them the players handbook.

Most players I've worked with would go straight for the parts that intrigued them, examine the mechanics, and run with it if it looks good. But if they aren't as impressed as they thought they'd be, they can flip around a bit and find something a little more mechanically interesting to them. This way, all your players have had a chance to examine all their options, but most won't have looked at all the feats and abilities, so they can still be surprised by the awesome manuevers their companions are using.

Also: Do be sure to be in the room with them so you can quickly answer questions about abilities. If they see powers involving moving and others involving shifting, it's better if you can tell them the difference rather than having them look it up(and possibly seeing things they aren't interested in for their character on the way).