? Care to elaborate?
High defense barbarian
- Thread starter Garboshnik
- Start date
eamon
Explorer
In general, it is not considered acceptable to "sacrifice" out-of-combat skills to gain an edge in combat.
This is partially due to the fact that it is abominably hard to really define and recognize such a loss; many losses don't really mean much anyhow since out-of-combat, roleplaying counts for more, and that's not a statistic on your charsheet you can sacrifice.
Secondly, (and as has been mentioned before by various WotC articles) it's not fun to have a character that "just can't do anything" outside of combat. By forcing players to choose between out-of-combat and in-combat utility, you are risking that they don't take the middle road but focus on one; this is problematic in a party where players don't all have the same balance, since it means the party's interests will diverge and it'll be harder to keep everyone entertained. Thus, it's a good idea to keep combat and roleplaying as mostly orthogonal concepts: trade-offs between the two are minor.
Furthermore, with the current set up, having a low defense is not a balancing factor. Since it is virtually assured that all PC's will have at least one defense which is trivially hit, and the rest will be poor too. Many PC's have terrible defenses without having a compensatory benefit. Focusing on these low defenses simply screws up the game. Of course, if FRW actually became competitive, this could be a balancing factor (and would, for instance, neatly balance hide armor expertise somewhat for the barbarian - since a Str/Con build will inevitably have lower ref than a Str/Dex build).
Looking at the barbarian in question, however, I'd say his AC is certainly not problematically high. Even a level equivalent foe has no trouble hitting him; and that's without combat advantage and without considering that enemies of a bit higher level aren't uncommon at all.
Summary: neither the out-of-combat factor nor his will defense are very appropriate balancing factors (they should never play more than a minor role as balancer), but the barb. doesn't look problematic.
This is partially due to the fact that it is abominably hard to really define and recognize such a loss; many losses don't really mean much anyhow since out-of-combat, roleplaying counts for more, and that's not a statistic on your charsheet you can sacrifice.
Secondly, (and as has been mentioned before by various WotC articles) it's not fun to have a character that "just can't do anything" outside of combat. By forcing players to choose between out-of-combat and in-combat utility, you are risking that they don't take the middle road but focus on one; this is problematic in a party where players don't all have the same balance, since it means the party's interests will diverge and it'll be harder to keep everyone entertained. Thus, it's a good idea to keep combat and roleplaying as mostly orthogonal concepts: trade-offs between the two are minor.
Furthermore, with the current set up, having a low defense is not a balancing factor. Since it is virtually assured that all PC's will have at least one defense which is trivially hit, and the rest will be poor too. Many PC's have terrible defenses without having a compensatory benefit. Focusing on these low defenses simply screws up the game. Of course, if FRW actually became competitive, this could be a balancing factor (and would, for instance, neatly balance hide armor expertise somewhat for the barbarian - since a Str/Con build will inevitably have lower ref than a Str/Dex build).
Looking at the barbarian in question, however, I'd say his AC is certainly not problematically high. Even a level equivalent foe has no trouble hitting him; and that's without combat advantage and without considering that enemies of a bit higher level aren't uncommon at all.
Summary: neither the out-of-combat factor nor his will defense are very appropriate balancing factors (they should never play more than a minor role as balancer), but the barb. doesn't look problematic.
Garboshnik
First Post
First, thanks for all of the constructive replies. I am a little surprised that no one else sees this as off since I often see low defenses mentioned as a balancing factor in other barbarian threads on this forum. I don't feel that very much offensive power had to be sacrificed in order to obtain high defenses on the class. His defenses are certainly not impossible to hit but they hold up well compared to the rest of the party. Here are the defenses for the party (AC/Fort/Ref/Will):
Barbarian: 29/28/28/23 (usually 31/28/29/23)
Starlock: 25/27/27/25 (+2 with shadow walk)
Inspiring Warlord: 28/27/25/26
Shielding Swordmage: 31/24/27/23
Laser Cleric: 26/22/22/26
I've included +3 armor, a +3 neck item, and the Paragon Defenses feat if the characters did not have them already. Will attacks seem to be the least common in the Dungeon adventures I have run (currently the Madness series of adventures from Dungeon magazine issues 161-163) so that helps the barbarian and swordmage out.
Looking at the numbers I think I can probably attribute the player discontent to the following:
- Some builds such as the laser cleric have a really hard time maintaining credible defenses.
- The barbarian has two reaction encounters (one from an item), a free attack on criticals, and a free charge on a kill. Between those and all the attacks the warlord grants him he ends up with a lot more 'screen time' in combat than any of the other party members. That also means more d20's rolled and more chances for massive critical damage.
- Rarity of attacks against will in many adventures masks the barbarian's low will defense.
I can adjust the attack types in the encounters and try to give the cleric some extra help but I'm not sure what to do about the screen time issue. I also still can't shake the nagging feeling that the party would be a lot more effective in most cases if it was composed of one or two leaders and all the rest as barbarians
PS: The barbarian is fine out of combat and I agree that it is not a balancing factor.
Barbarian: 29/28/28/23 (usually 31/28/29/23)
Starlock: 25/27/27/25 (+2 with shadow walk)
Inspiring Warlord: 28/27/25/26
Shielding Swordmage: 31/24/27/23
Laser Cleric: 26/22/22/26
I've included +3 armor, a +3 neck item, and the Paragon Defenses feat if the characters did not have them already. Will attacks seem to be the least common in the Dungeon adventures I have run (currently the Madness series of adventures from Dungeon magazine issues 161-163) so that helps the barbarian and swordmage out.
Looking at the numbers I think I can probably attribute the player discontent to the following:
- Some builds such as the laser cleric have a really hard time maintaining credible defenses.
- The barbarian has two reaction encounters (one from an item), a free attack on criticals, and a free charge on a kill. Between those and all the attacks the warlord grants him he ends up with a lot more 'screen time' in combat than any of the other party members. That also means more d20's rolled and more chances for massive critical damage.
- Rarity of attacks against will in many adventures masks the barbarian's low will defense.
I can adjust the attack types in the encounters and try to give the cleric some extra help but I'm not sure what to do about the screen time issue. I also still can't shake the nagging feeling that the party would be a lot more effective in most cases if it was composed of one or two leaders and all the rest as barbarians
PS: The barbarian is fine out of combat and I agree that it is not a balancing factor.
It sounds like screen time is more the issue than the effectiveness of the barbarian. If the warlord is constantly giving the barbarian extra attacks, I can see that being a problem. Maybe you could discuss allowing the warlord to make those bonus attack & damage rolls, seeing as how the warlord is sacrificing his attack or damage in order to provide it. Perhaps the warlord could also invest in some exploits that give free basic attacks or ranged basic attacks (instead of melee basic attacks).
Why are the barbian's stats usually +2 AC and +1 Reflex over normal?
Why are the barbian's stats usually +2 AC and +1 Reflex over normal?
hero4hire
Explorer
Come on, the guy has spent Ability scores, feats, magic items, and possibly powers, just to be durable. Of course he is going to be durable, that is his aim. The fact that he also does good damage is a result of him being a *striker*. Don't punish him for that. Now, if it is (as was mentioned) an issue of being flashy or 'hogging DM time', then deal with that seperately.
Jay
Jay
eamon
Explorer
(this was on the topic of there being only 3 or 4 encounters in a day):
I don't know, but 3 or 4 encounters seems pretty normal to me. Sure, sometimes there will be more, but sometimes there will also be less.
I don't think it should be a requirement for there to more than 4 encounters a day on most days for the game to be balanced.
So: this shouldn't be the balancing factor you need to tweak.
(I agree with Turtlejay: sounds to me like it's focus time that's more of an issue here, or perhaps other players having less optimal builds. Dramatic crits and bursty damage is the barbarians shtik, though, so I'm not sure what to do about that...).
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
Just a question, but did you do point buy or rolls? Rolling can exagerate teh differences between characters.
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