D&D 5E High-level no-save spells in practice

[FormerlyHemlock]

You may find it in insulting but that's what it is. You're using your imagination to come up with a rule that directly screws over a player. I'm sorry, but that is cops and robbers.

Incorrect, sorry. You've been shown twice in this thread how the rules actually say that you can't Forcecage certain creatures; I get that you're sore because you think that it gimps the wizard in a game balance sense, and so you're free to change it in your game. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. But you don't get to pretend like you're the one playing by the rules and everyone else is breaking them by following them.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The simple fact of the matter is that at the point where the wizard says "I'm casting forcecage", the DM should say "the dragon is larger than the size of the forcecage, so it's not going to be able to trap it. Are you sure you want to cast that?", at which point the wizard casts something else (or tricks the dragon into squeezing somewhere - I'm reminded of various legends about evil genies being tricked into bottles). I mean ideally that should have come up some time before (and probably been used to the players advantage at least once).

There should never be a point where the player says "I cast X" and the DM says "Aha! The spell doesn't work how you expect, due to a difference in opinion on the rules!", because frankly that's just being a jerk.

Yep, absolutely agree. The discussion thread is the kind of thing I would point out to my players long before the situation with the dragon came up--not necessarily by discussing Forcecage directly, but just by describing dragons when they see them. I did that last week for a double-sized Roc: showed them how it takes up a 40' square on the grid but also pointed out that its wingspan is a good 120' feet in addition to that.

Ideally, the Forcecage player should not be surprised to find that the dragon won't fit in his little cube. If he is surprised that would be my fault (as his eyes and ears) for failing to convey the game world accurately.

 

[DaveDash]

The simple fact of the matter is that at the point where the wizard says "I'm casting forcecage", the DM should say "the dragon is larger than the size of the forcecage, so it's not going to be able to trap it. Are you sure you want to cast that?", at which point the wizard casts something else (or tricks the dragon into squeezing somewhere - I'm reminded of various legends about evil genies being tricked into bottles). I mean ideally that should have come up some time before (and probably been used to the players advantage at least once).

There should never be a point where the player says "I cast X" and the DM says "Aha! The spell doesn't work how you expect, due to a difference in opinion on the rules!", because frankly that's just being a jerk.

Nope. It needs to be well before that, otherwise you've just screwed over your Bard/Sorcerer player the moment he picks that spell as one of his known spells. Right then you need to say "Right, so this spell is going to be up to me, and I'm going to rule it like this...."

Also that's fine if you decide to put arbitrary restrictions around the Wizards most powerful spells, but consider how limited they are.

Then since we're ignoring grids completely and using our imagination, I'm guessing that your players can poke their heads out of fog clouds and attack, gaining +5 cover? Squeeze up against a corner and fire their crossbow for similar reasons? Jump on the Dragons tail 20ft away from where it's actually represented, or hack it off? Since it's wings suddenly matter, I suppose now we can now misty step onto its back and hack it's wings off now too?

We're not using squares now to judge the size of things, so the possibilities are endless...

 

[DaveDash]

Incorrect, sorry. You've been shown twice in this thread how the rules actually say that you can't Forcecage certain creatures; I get that you're sore because you think that it gimps the wizard in a game balance sense, and so you're free to change it in your game. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. But you don't get to pretend like you're the one playing by the rules and everyone else is breaking them by following them.

Where are the rules for the size of a Dragon that state without a shred of a doubt it cannot fit inside a force cage? How long is a Dragon? How wide is a Dragon? How tall is a Dragon?

Using your own rules against you - the space it "controls" in combat may be much bigger than its actual size. I certainly am not 5ft in all directions, yet presumably I control that space in combat (and even more).

Fact - there are none, it's up to your imagination.

Ultimately it's your game and if you want to rule that way, on the cuff, that certain things can't fit into a force cage, that's totally cool. I strongly oppose projecting such inconsistencies on your players in game, but that's up to you. Don't pretend however though that there's some mechanical justification for that ruling, because there ain't. With some rare exceptions, creatures are as big or as small as you want them to be - RAW.

 

[SigmaOne]

Fact - there are none, it's up to your imagination.

By your rules, I'm wondering what's left for the imagination.

We're not using squares now to judge the size of things, so the possibilities are endless...

Hey, now we agree on something!

More seriously... at this point the "argument" is no longer an argument. It's people who are playing different games arguing about the rules of those games as if they were the same game. They aren't the same game. Don't pretend this is a debate, as was said already --- you are (and now I too am, foolishly) talking past each other. Maybe we could find something more productive to discuss elsewhere, and let people who actually have something related to the topic jump in at this point. Aw, who am I kidding? That's not how this goes; that's never how this goes.

Anyway, I'm interested in seeing other people relate their experiences with supposedly game breaking spells.

Edit: This was posted before your last edit [MENTION=6786202]DaveDash[/MENTION], and I just wanted to add that I appreciate your adding that paragraph, and (for whatever it is or is not worth) it elevated you in my view.

 

[DaveDash]

By your rules, I'm wondering what's left for the imagination.



Hey, now we agree on something!

More seriously... at this point the "argument" is no longer an argument. It's people who are playing different games arguing about the rules of those games as if they were the same game. They aren't the same game. Don't pretend this is a debate, as was said already --- you are (and now I too am, foolishly) talking past each other. Maybe we could find something more productive to discuss elsewhere, and let people who actually have something related to the topic jump in at this point. Aw, who am I kidding? That's not how this goes; that's never how this goes.

Anyway, I'm interested in seeing other people relate their experiences with supposedly game breaking spells.

Edit: This was posted before your last edit @DaveDash, and I just wanted to add that I appreciate your adding that paragraph, and (for whatever it is or is not worth) it elevated you in my view.

I'm not saying its an invalid ruling. It's perfectly valid. However:

I run a high level game.
I see the Paladin totally dominating play. This class is so powerful that my group has decided the optimal path to victory is buffing him, then hiding somewhere as to not lose concentration.
I see spells like Force Cage being used sparingly, for various reasons, but when it is used, it makes the Wizard player feel powerful.
The Wizard player has comfort in my game that he knows what he can and cannot do without having to consult me, without me inferring in things half way through a fight.
I find much greater satisfaction in making him work for his force cage, or forcing him to pick the right moment, by giving powerful creatures misty step/counterspell from time to time, than simply going "Nope, won't work on Dragons". Sometimes it MAY work, other times it may not. He gets to feel powerful, while at the same time challenged.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Ultimately it's your game and if you want to rule that way, on the cuff, that certain things can't fit into a force cage, that's totally cool. I strongly oppose projecting such inconsistencies on your players in game, but that's up to you. Don't pretend however though that there's some mechanical justification for that ruling, because there ain't. With some rare exceptions, creatures are as big or as small as you want them to be - RAW.

It's not on the cuff, Mr. Dash. We're talking about it now, on the Internet, a good six months to a year before the situation ever arises in game (if it ever does), and I've already established with my players that size grids and creature sizes don't match up[1]. This isn't a surprise ruling.

[1] The PHB said it before I ever did, of course, but I've emphasized it in by drawing things out on the battlegrid.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I'm not really sure what consistent option there is for determining creature size other than consistently letting the DM decide.

The rules give us very few examples of actual creature sizes, but when they do those sizes are often quite a bit larger than what you might expect for the controlled combat area. For instance, the tarrasque is 70' long and 50' high. Giants were already brought up. The picture of the kraken makes it seem larger than the tarrasque.

Even in the PHB, the rule for how much area a Gargantuan creature controls in combat doesn't even try--it just says "20 ft. by 20 ft. or larger."

I'm very sympathetic with @DaveDash as far as players being able to know what to expect and not having the DM mess over their character arbitrarily--but in this case I don't see any option other than letting the DM decide. It hasn't bugged my players yet...but then again there wasn't a wizard or sorcerer around when fighting the kraken. I ruled that it took up about 80' by 80'*. The players were all over the thing, the fighter pried open the mouth to get the swallowed rogue out, and an aboleth took control of the paladin...twas a glorious battle.

*The players never asked for precise dimensions, and I kept the map to myself. I find combat goes a lot quicker when I can track rough position but the players aren't staring at a map trying to convince me they can move such and such far bouncing off the wall, etc. I want to be consistent, which means I have to say no more often than I want. The funny thing is that when I'm the only one who sees the map, I can keep the distances more fuzzy and just say "yes, you can get there this turn and still attack," more often, because I don't have to worry about setting precedents in fuzzy land. I'm also a lot more generous on how many monsters you can get in an area of effect than the DMG suggests. Even when I'm keeping it in my head and not using a map (most of the time), my mental image almost always has plenty of opportunities for a good AoE to wreak havoc. Kind of bugs me when other DMs are stingy with the amount of creatures they allow to fit in my character's AoE.

 

[Psikerlord#]

One of my houserules is that legendary saves give a save when you don't normally get one - eg for sleep, forcecage, etc.

We go theatre of the mind. No grids in sight. I haven't had to deal with forcecages and fitting monsters inside, but suspect I would generally rule that big dragons are too large to fit in a forcecage, esp with their wings outstretched. If the player thought this was unfair, I'd let them rechoose their spell (learnt, or memorized, or whatever, I certainly don't want to shortchange anyone on the basis of a misunderstanding of how a spell works).

 

[Celtavian]

I have run in a campaign up to level 16. I ran the wizard. We never once used forcecage. It looks good on paper, but isn't particularly useful in actual play.

As Dave Dash stated it is more effective to cast a 3rd level fly spell on a martial and let them kill whatever BBEG you are fighting. They can withstand enough damage and do enough damage to kill most things, even Legendary Creatures without you having to spend a 7th level spell slot to seal it in a force cube that makes killing it more difficult. I imagine some seal it in the cube with bars and then fire through the bars. That can make killing some large creature much easier. I don't know it if is an ideal use of a 7th level spell slot.

I'm in a group now with a cleric. I will let you know about contagion when I use it. I am Trickery Domain and intend to use it with Invoke Duplicity. I'm thinking that one will be more powerful than forcecage.