Hold Person vs Boots of Flying

[Hypersmurf]

Huh? I don't recall any reference to armor changing the speed of character under the effects of a fly spell.

So much for 1337 SRD-fu skills

"The spell’s subject can fly with a speed of 90 feet (60 feet if the creature wears medium or heavy armor). The subject can fly up at half speed and descend at double speed. The flying subject’s maneuverability rating is good. Using the fly spell requires as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears."

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

I thank you master for humbling this one with your great SRD-fu.

The section makes no sense though, as it ignores encumbrance from weight.

Even this does not state that fly has continual somatic components. I an willing to write if off as a quirk of the spell. If not, what specific encumbrance applies? Could you still fly if you were tied, couldn't move your legs or are missing limbs.

 

[rhammer2]

Fly gives the target a flying speed of 90. The flying creature is under all the standard encumbrance rules for movement. Hold Person keeps a target from using their movement, hence no flying while held.

I thank you master for humbling this one with your great SRD-fu.

The section makes no sense though, as it ignores encumbrance from weight.

Even this does not state that fly has continual somatic components. I an willing to write if off as a quirk of the spell. If not, what specific encumbrance applies? Could you still fly if you were tied, couldn't move your legs or are missing limbs.

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Therefore, someone flying is slowed down because their movement is restricted.

Wow, I sense an argument.

Let's start by evaluating the premises.

The first part:

How do you account for the fact that someone wearing Medium Armor has their speed reduced from 90' to 60', but someone carrying Medium Armor does not?

Not really an argument. There are elements that could be turned into premises, though. (That speed is reduced from 90’ to 60’ while wearing medium armor is true. That carrying as opposed to wearing armor alleviates one from this movement restriction –assuming maximum encumbrance has not been reached as a result- is also true.) Obviously we are meant to conclude that a distinction exists between “wearing” armor and “carrying” armor.

Note that “I” or “we” are under no obligation to account for this distinction. If it matters to the argument, it’s up to the author to make it clear why we should consider it.

First premise:

Originally posted by Hypersmurf
Armor slows you down because it restricts your movement.

What kind of movement? Base speed, range of motion, both, neither? How does it restrict movement? Is it because of the shear weight of armor, or is it because of the armor limiting range of motion? And if “armor” restricts movement (as you say), then why don’t light armors impose a movement penalty?

The PHB indicates that ”Medium and Heavy armor slows you down.”(See page 105, under the heading Speed.) However, it doesn’t give a word of text explaining why.

Were you trying to say, “Medium and Heavy Armor slows you down because it reduces your Speed”? Or something else?

Second premise:

Originally posted by Hypersmurf
Someone flying is slowed down because they wear armor.

This statement is partially true. Someone under the effects of the Fly spell is slowed down if they wear Medium or heavier armor (according to the spell description for Fly). Wearing Light armor will not reduce the movement speed granted by the Fly spell.

Originally posted by Hypersmurf
Therefore, someone flying is slowed down because their movement is restricted.

I’m sorry, the conclusion does not follow. The first premise is unsupported by the PHB, and is hampered by not adequately explaining why armor limits movement, and what kinds of movement are restricted. The second premise is true (when corrected for wording) but fails to support the conclusion because it relies on the -faulty- first premise to qualify it.

Further, nothing in the argument refutes what is written in the spell description of Fly found in the PHB, which clearly states that “using” the Fly spell requires the recipient to spend just as much effort concentrating as he or she would spend while walking.

IMO, the argument should have started with the notion that “movement” of some kind is required to use the Fly spell, and then gone on to define what “movement” means in this context before building arguments that support the notion.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A human walking has a speed of 30. If he's wearing Medium Armor, his speed is reduced to 20. He must take a Move action to move.

If he's riding a horse, he travels at the speed of the horse. If he's wearing Medium Armor, he still travels at the speed of the horse. He doesn't take a Move action to move, the horse does.

If someone is Telekinesing him, he travels at 20 feet per round, regardless of his armor. He doesn't take a Move action to move.

If he's under a Fly spell, he has a speed of 90. If he's wearing Medium Armor, his speed is reduced to 60. He must take a Move action to move.

In situations where the character is not "moving" - where something is causing him to move - the armor he is wearing is irrelevant. Despite the fact that he is encumbered, the speed at which he travels is unaffected.

In cases where he is, in fact, "moving" in the D&D-technical sense of the word, wearing Medium Armor reduces his speed, because he is encumbered.

Telekinetic movement is unaffected by his encumbrance. A Fly spell is. While held, you can take "purely mental actions", but you cannot "move".

Telekinesis does not require "moving" in the D&D-technical sense.

Flying, on the other hand, is notably similar to walking - it requires the same amount of concentration, it requires "moving" (prohibited by the held condition), and the speed is affected by the encumbrance of armor.

If Flying were "purely mental"... why does the encumbrance of armor affect the speed?

-Hyp.

 

[The_lone_gunman]

To throw more fuel on the fire:

If the held spell compelled you to stand still, why would you fall while you where flying with wings? Isnt falling down "moving"? Would the spell that is compelling you to stand still make you try to stay in the same position?

Same with swimming.

Even better: If you are held, and someone picks you up and moves you around, would the hold spell compel you to try and stop them from moving you and maintain your position?

Obviously I think the fly spell would allow you to keep moving.

TLG

 

[Bauglir]

"Flying requires as much concentration as walking"

This is a non-argument. Waving my arms about requires about as much concentration as walking too and of course I can't do that when held.

In fact, since flying requires this much concentration; it is implied that one must concentrate on moving to use the active fly effect, (using up a move action) and hold person supresses all attempts to move.

Magic is not science. It's not shutting down your motor functions, it's mentally commanding you not to move

 

[Bauglir]

To throw more fuel on the fire:

If the held spell compelled you to stand still, why would you fall while you where flying with wings? Isnt falling down "moving"? Would the spell that is compelling you to stand still make you try to stay in the same position?

Same with swimming.

Even better: If you are held, and someone picks you up and moves you around, would the hold spell compel you to try and stop them from moving you and maintain your position?

Obviously I think the fly spell would allow you to keep moving.

TLG

It tells you to hold still. It has no control over gravity or over bob the fighter that just picked you up. Were you held in mid-air with a fly spell active then I think you would just hover.

The point is that you cannot move yourself.

 

[The_lone_gunman]

As I said in the reply above yours, why would you fall then if you were flying around with wings and were held? If the spell is mentally commanding you to NOT move, then falling is moving, just like floating down is moving (if you where swimming) and thus you would try to stop from moving to keep in line with the spells "mental" control. The spell isnt mentally commanding you to not move, it is keeping your brain from activating your limbs to move.

I think the statement in the fly spell that flying takes as much concentration as walking is what is throwing people. IMO, that was placed there as "flavor" in order to demonstrate that flying with this spell is effortless. Not as some limitation to read into with the other spells that restrict normal movement and such.

TLG

 

[The_lone_gunman]

It tells you to hold still. It has no control over gravity or over bob the fighter that just picked you up. Were you held in mid-air with a fly spell active then I think you would just hover.

The point is that you cannot move yourself.

EXACTLY my point! It tells you to HOLD still. Which by your interpretation is a mental command, and if you are falling you are not holding still and thus not following the commands of the spell. This is the whole point of mine that the spell is not commanding you to do anything, it is simply holding your limbs still.

What about teleporting? Isnt teleporting moving? Or any other spell effect that you could move with and have metamagiked.

TLG