D&D General Holding non-Paladins to their class vows

[Yaarel]

This is a very modern viewpoint, and in my opinion it's a bit crazier of a superstition than was believed by people who believed in fairies, witches, and spirits living in trees. They might have believed some really wild and far out stuff, but they never believed anything as crazy as that. They at least understood that they were mortal and frail, and no matter how much they really really wanted it to be true, they couldn't cause things to happen just because they really wanted it bad enough. Simple verifiable and repeatable scientific inquiry affirmed that truth again and again.

It depends on the culture. Some cultures believe the human mind or spirit is extremely powerful. Such as Norse shamanism, and shamanism in most aboriginal cultures. Some cultures believe many mysterious phenomena result from powerful humans doing them unconsciously without realizing, such as in certain animisms in Africa. Compare the belief in the ‘evil eye’ where the power of a human causes harm. Some cultures, like in parts of India, believe the discipline of taking on a specific code (dharma) manifests cosmic powers. Compare in Japan and similar traditions, where Zen focus and conduct can manifest wondrous effects. And so on.

Some cultures are utterly this-worldly and estimate human potential as extremely powerful.

 

[Leatherhead]

The same section you bolded also showed that you can pursue cleric life. It choose you is not the only way it can happen.

I feel like this is a language problem.

Sure, technically you can try to pursue it:
You can travel to your local temple, become a priest, and pray and proselytize and sacrifice every day.
You might even be able to perform some minor miracles if your god is feeling particularly generous.
But ultimately, even if you make yourself an "ideal candidate" with all of the above, you still have to be chosen to be a Cleric.

 

[Celebrim]

It depends on the culture. Some cultures believe the human mind or spirit is extremely powerful. Such as Norse shamanism...

I don't want to burst your bubble too much, but Norse shamanism is a thoroughly modern reconstruction of ancient beliefs of which we have only the most marginal knowledge of their actual practice. But in general, shamanism is perfect case in point here. The shaman's power comes from making bargains with beings in the spirit world, who then allow the shaman to be a vessel for their power. The shaman may possess esoteric knowledge of how to please, coerce, or manipulate these beings, but they and not him are the source of the power.

Some cultures, like in parts of India, believe the discipline of taking on a specific code (dharma) manifests cosmic powers. Compare in Japan and similar traditions, where Zen focus and conduct can manifest wondrous effects. And so on.

Ok, I'll grant you that with Eastern philosophies it becomes a bit more complicated, as there are several pantheistic eastern philosophies that hold that everything is divine and individuality is an illusion. If you believe that, then it proceeds that by giving up the self in various ways, you can tap into the cosmic divinity. However, I'm not going to pretend to have a lot of knowledge of Eastern esoteric practice, except to note that much of it may be more modern than you realize. And in any event, we aren't talking about Oaths when we are talking about Zen oneness meditation, and we are certainly not talking about people trying to get what they want by thinking hard about it.

 

[Blue]

To my mind, a Paladin's Oath is a fairly internal thing. It may have been made to an outside force, such as a deity, your ancestors, or just screamed into the uncaring firmament. However the oath itself is an intensely personal thing - the paladin must believe in it and be dedicated utterly to its fulfilment for it to become the source of their powers as it does.
Anyone can swears an oath. Not every oath has the sheer level of commitment behind it to magically empower the one who swears it.

I'm 100% the other way around. No oath ever has the sheer level of commitment behind it to magical empower the one who swears it. An outside force always picks someone and empowers them.

Why they pick someone varies. While it could be that they match the god's ideal perfectly, that isn't the only reason. It could be for their deeds, like it "The Deed of Paksenarrion" by Elizabeth Moon. It could be that they see someone has a potential. It could be some other part of their larger-than-human point of view, that they know they will do well.

Requiring all paladins to start out "perfect" in regards to their oath takes a large number of interesting characters off the table, which is enough reason by itself.

 

[Blue]

The ONLY oath that matters is the one that the player thinks is interesting and inspiring for the character concept.

This is much more along the lines of what I was saying then what you were. Oaths need to be interesting to the player, not limited to just a perfect fit between character and oath.

 

[Blue]

I feel like this is a language problem.

Sure, technically you can try to pursue it:
You can travel to your local temple, become a priest, and pray and proselytize and sacrifice every day.
You might even be able to perform some minor miracles if your god is feeling particularly generous.
But ultimately, even if you make yourself an "ideal candidate" with all of the above, you still have to be chosen to be a Cleric.

The ranks of the churches have plenty of people who are clerics. Not saying everyone is, but by far the majority. These aren't chosen to be a Cleric and then joined the church, they joined the church and then were granted spells.

Yes, they were granted spells by being chosen by the god to cast them. You are correct. But also when almost all dedicated celebrants of a church can cast spells, there's a pretty direct human path to that choice. We definitely see this in adventures set in the default setting, FR.

To give an real world analogy: I can only become a mayor of a town by the will of the people, but I'm extremely unlikely to become a mayor if I don't get my name on the ballet and run a campaign. So yes, being mayor is entirely the will of some outside force, but for the most part only those that want to become a mayor will do so.

 

[Yaarel]

This is much more along the lines of what I was saying then what you were. Oaths need to be interesting to the player, not limited to just a perfect fit between character and oath.

Every Paladin archetype implies an alignment, with a suitable code accordingly.

But if a player wants to play against type, such as a Paladin with conquest abilities as a scrupulous good guy, then the player can write up ones own customized code, and write it down in the Personality section, as part of the Ideals.

The DM needs to look at the Personality to reward relevant roleplaying.

 

[Leatherhead]

The ranks of the churches have plenty of people who are clerics. Not saying everyone is, but by far the majority. These aren't chosen to be a Cleric and then joined the church, they joined the church and then were granted spells.

That's the exact opposite of what the book says. It's up there in the middle quote from the other post.

There is a difference between a priest and a Cleric. Having spells or powers isn't required to be a priest. And a being a priest that has spells doesn't qualify one as a Cleric.

 

[Yaarel]

I don't want to burst your bubble too much.

* rolleyes *



Anyway.



A shaman can project ones mind, influence other minds, and sense other minds, because that is something that a human ‘mind’ can do.

In Norse shamanism, Sámi shamanism, and other shamanisms across North Asia, as well as among Australian aborigines, and many cultures elsewhere.



The ‘evil eye’ can ‘crush a stone’ because an envious human mind has such power to do so. And so on. The ‘good eye’.

Even the modern US has ‘psychic healers’ whose subcultures believe their human mind has the power to heal the body.

 

[Yaarel]

The Scottish traditions (as described in the witch trials there) believed a person gained magical powers from spirits, especially during a vivid and sometimes terrifying sexual dream with a (humansize) ‘Fairy’ ‘Elf’ ‘Sith’. But these traditions blend animism, polytheism, and monotheism, into a unique kind of tradition. They are nonrepresentative of most aboriginal animism. Albeit, the Scottish beliefs hint at what prehistorical animism might have been like there.

Saomi shamanic traditions in Finnland typically have a nature spirit teach the shaman the ways of shamanism. But in this tradition, the mind of the spirit is showing and training the shaman what any mind can do, including a human mind. The spirit guide is more like phys-ed teacher who is training someone to be good at athletics. It is the athletes own human potential that is manifesting.

Many cultures have a high estimation of the human mind.