Holiday Present - The Elf PHB entry

[Asmor]

I'd imagine it's like what it was in the PHB2. That book had a number of different example character traits you could apply to your character. They were just suggestions designed to get people to think about their character's personality a bit more.

In that book, there was no mechanical benefit for it. And I hope for the love of all that is good they don't tie any mechanics into the characteristics in the 4E PHB because then it'll take all of a half-second for those to turn from 'suggestions to flesh out a personality' into 'ways to squeeze the most juice out of certain builds'.

Hey, that's a great idea! As long as we're stealing ideas from WoW, why not take a cue from Pokémon as well?

I don't know if I should play a modest wizard or an adamant warlord.

/my timid Jolteon will pwn you faster than you can blink

 

[cr0m]

I'm still thinking about Elven Accuracy. An earlier poster guessed that you're required to keep your re-roll in order to stop players from rolling well (a successful hit, for example) and then using Elven Accuracy to try to improve that to a critical.

That's a great use of the power! Do you burn it now, hoping for a crit, or save it for when you know you missed? I really don't get the strange, fiddly "you must keep the 2nd roll" rule.

 

[KarinsDad]

What if the elf is instinctually directing those nearby to focus on their surroundings in a more general sense, or coordinating the vision and hearing angles of the party?

Everyone but the other Elves in the party.

And again, how exactly is it that the Elves "force" the other party members to behave or react in certain ways?

 

[KarinsDad]

Re: Forgetting the +1 Perception bonus.

If Perception is a "passive" ability, the person who has to remember is not the player. Its the DM.

That's my job, and I personally think I can handle it.

Only at some tables.

At my table, I have the players roll most of their perception-like rolls.

 

[KarinsDad]

Its still a sorry +1 bonus (ie, not worth keepign track of). It reminds me of affiliations. Cool concept, but frequently lame implementation. Am I really going to remember that I get a +1 to make pancakes on Tuesday?

The entire problem with 3E/3.5 was that there are too MANY bonuses.

WotC should be getting rid of many of the bonuses. These are the things that eventually made the math bad at higher levels.

There are only so many possibilities with a D20 roll, but when someone is +40 with an ability and the opponents only have defenses of 35, the D20 becomes superfluous.

Look at the Elf. +2 to Perception. +1 to Wisdom. He is +3 to the roll with a Wisdom of 10. With a 1st level Wisdom of 18 (16 +2 racial), +2 to the skill, getting the skill Trained (+5) and Skill Focus (+5), he is already +16 to the roll (assuming a SWSE system and assuming he can get both of these). The bonuses can add up real quick.

His buddies in the group are +1 to +6.

The Elf can Take 10 and see most everything and his buddies can roll and rarely see anything.

The bonus range is too broad for first level PCs.

 

[The Little Raven]

Everyone but the other Elves in the party.

Because the other Elves already have a +2 bonus to Perception from race, and they're trying to get rid of all those stacking bonuses.

 

[FireLance]

Look at the Elf. +2 to Perception. +1 to Wisdom. He is +3 to the roll with a Wisdom of 10. With a 1st level Wisdom of 18 (16 +2 racial), +2 to the skill, getting the skill Trained (+5) and Skill Focus (+5), he is already +16 to the roll (assuming a SWSE system and assuming he can get both of these). The bonuses can add up real quick.

His buddies in the group are +1 to +6.

The Elf can Take 10 and see most everything and his buddies can roll and rarely see anything.

The bonus range is too broad for first level PCs.

How broad is too broad, anyway?

Of the +16 in bonuses, only +3 directly relate to his being an elf. A human could have 16 Wisdom and Training and Focus in Perception for a +13 bonus at 1st level. The human similarly outclasses anyone is his party with a Perception bonus of +3 or lower, which is probably anyone who has no particular need to specialize in Wisdom.

 

[Shroomy]

The range isn't too broad if the bonuses on the opposed Stealth role are of a similar value, which they should be if my understanding of the SWSE skill system is correct.

 

[Voss]

How broad is too broad, anyway?

Of the +16 in bonuses, only +3 directly relate to his being an elf. A human could have 16 Wisdom and Training and Focus in Perception for a +13 bonus at 1st level. The human similarly outclasses anyone is his party with a Perception bonus of +3 or lower, which is probably anyone who has no particular need to specialize in Wisdom.

Lets put it this way.

Elf guy, as above. +16 (or someone else trained, focuses and a pile of bonuses)
Rogue, trained, slight wisdom. call it +7
untrained, wisdom-less fellow. +0. Or +1 if the elf is close by.

this is all first level, by the way.

Whats an appropriate DC here?
10? Not even an issue for the elf. #2, 85% chance of success. #3, 50%.
15? 100% for elf. #2: 60%. #3: 25%
20? #1: 80%, still. #2, 35%. #3: 5%
25? Sorry, only the elf is playing reliably at this level. He's still at 55%. #2 is down to 15%. #3 isn't even there.

So how do you appropriately challenge this party with spot or search scenario? Oh, the perception specialist found it and the rest of you shouldn't even bother isn't a very good option.

Even without the elf (say a human with focus, training, that perception/combat advantage feat and a decent wisdom, near an elf he's at +15 or so.), this variance in the modifier for 1st level characters is far too huge. 0 to about ~15 when the random number generator only goes to 20 is a major problem. Someone's randomly throwing the dice and hoping he gets Vegas Odds, and someone else is almost guaranteed a win. That isn't good. In fact, as a system, thats down right *horrible*.

Gods help us if they take the Saga route and make initiative a skill

 

[Campbell]

The entire problem with 3E/3.5 was that there are too MANY bonuses.

WotC should be getting rid of many of the bonuses. These are the things that eventually made the math bad at higher levels.

There are only so many possibilities with a D20 roll, but when someone is +40 with an ability and the opponents only have defenses of 35, the D20 becomes superfluous.

Look at the Elf. +2 to Perception. +1 to Wisdom. He is +3 to the roll with a Wisdom of 10. With a 1st level Wisdom of 18 (16 +2 racial), +2 to the skill, getting the skill Trained (+5) and Skill Focus (+5), he is already +16 to the roll (assuming a SWSE system and assuming he can get both of these). The bonuses can add up real quick.

His buddies in the group are +1 to +6.

The Elf can Take 10 and see most everything and his buddies can roll and rarely see anything.

The bonus range is too broad for first level PCs.

If the bonus range is too broad, that's mostly due to Skill Focus. However, I don't understand your emphasis on 1_st level. If we assume that extending the sweet spot over all levels of play is a Good Thing^TM how can a bonus range be too broad at 1_st level yet perfectly acceptable at 30_th ?