D&D 5E Hopes for the 5E Fighter

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Meteor swarm takes nine segments to cast, which means it takes 2-3 rounds to cast.

I know it's off-topic and really is moot since it's been a long time since I played AD&D, but could you explain this one to me? How do you get 2-3 rounds for a 9-segment spell? IIRC, a round is 10 segments long so at most the spell should overlap two rounds. I feel like this was one of many rules my group may have misinterpreted back in the day.

 

[Gort]

I was using 3e as a base.

Hell no.

The 3rd ed fighter is complete rubbish compared to the 4th ed one.

The 4th ed fighter can heal himself. The 4th ed fighter can very effectively prevent enemies ignoring him, and punish them if they do. The 4th ed fighter can actually keep up with spellcasters in a fight.

The 3rd ed fighter was naff at all these things. I reckon the fighter was the class they did best in 4th ed out of the whole lot.

 

[ChainSawHobbit]

I don't think Fighters having daily powers makes any sense. What can a Fighter do that they can only do once a day? They should have a pool of "power points" that recharge between encounters. What would be At-Will powers cost no points, what would be Encounter powers cost one point, and what would be Daily powers cost two points. Also, Fighters shouldn't half any more than half a dozen powers at a time. This simplifies things.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Hell no.

The 3rd ed fighter is complete rubbish compared to the 4th ed one.

The 4th ed fighter can heal himself. The 4th ed fighter can very effectively prevent enemies ignoring him, and punish them if they do. The 4th ed fighter can actually keep up with spellcasters in a fight.

Yes, and not one bit of it makes any sense.

 

[dangerous jack]

My big hope for the fighter is that I can have a player say they want to play either of the following and both be happy:
* a tough guy with a sword
* a tough guy with a sword, who was raised on the mean streets of Calimport and incorporates improvised weapons and martial arts into his attacks, and who wants to be a member of the Order of the Crown

 

[WizarDru]

The 3rd ed fighter was naff at all these things. I reckon the fighter was the class they did best in 4th ed out of the whole lot.

The 3E fighter could wear heavy armor without wasting a feat to do so. The 3E fighter could use more than one dang weapon and be really good with it.

I like some aspects of the 4E fighter: battlefield control is an aspect my players enjoy. Being able to heal themselves was nice in the perspective of not having to fall back in combat. But the 4E created a fighter who's specialty wasn't actually FIGHTING. She was a meat-shield or a tank, but couldn't deal the damage nearly as well as her 3E counterpart, nor handle nearly as many weapons as well. The 3E fighter is a versatile battle machine, while the 4E fighter is, in many ways, a weaker version of the paladin. The essentials Knight was a step in the right direction, but at the apparent sacrifice of dailies, which usually deliver a players most satisfying powers.

Of the core four in 4E, the fighter suffered the most, I think.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I know it's off-topic and really is moot since it's been a long time since I played AD&D, but could you explain this one to me? How do you get 2-3 rounds for a 9-segment spell? IIRC, a round is 10 segments long so at most the spell should overlap two rounds. I feel like this was one of many rules my group may have misinterpreted back in the day.

Yeah, I'm also a little rusty, been playing basic lately, not 1E. There are no segments in Basic.

9 segments, plus the initiative roll. So, theoretically, he can get it off in one round, if he's lucky and rolls well. But he's still going dead last. If he rolls a 6, that's 15 segments, so he'll go on segment 5 on the second round. So 2 rounds, generally, not 3, but my point still remains. If he's careful or lucky, or both, a magic user is stupidly powerful, but it's quite easy to ruin his day. Now,of course, if he plans well, he can be invisible, mirror imaged, etc, to hedge his bet, but he can't do this nearly as often as a 3e wizard. Even mid level spells are a problem because generally speaking, a spell has a casting time equal to it's spell level. There are exceptions, such as the power word spells, but it's generally true. So that cloudkill spell will still go late in the round and possibly on the second round of combat.


Again, I'm NOT suggesting 5e should incorporate segments, just that something needs to be done to reign in spellcasters. Make them work to get their spells off, or introduce a mechanic like WFRP wherin their's a casting roll that can be failed or make it dangerous to cast a spell. Something. Magicing up the fighter is the poorest solution they could have come up with. I play a fighter because I want to deal death with my sword, not magically hold aggro and have wounds spontaneously appear on the enemy because he decides to wack on the thief. 4e may have balanced the classes, but at what cost?

 

[DonTadow]

Fixing the fighter is simple, leave him as is and fix the magic system. 3e broke the fighter by making spells too easy to cast. Interrupting a wizard is insanely difficult. You have to ready a partial action to hit him when he begins casting. Even then, he gets a concentration check. This is again something Gary got right. In AD&D, the higher level the spell, the harder it is to get off. Meteor swarm takes nine segments to cast, which means it takes 2-3 rounds to cast. One hit from anything ruins it. You can't even use your dex bonus to dodge, or move at all. Now, I'm not saying 5e needs to go back to tracking segments, but some method of making spells harder to cast simply must be implemented, else the fighter will always be a torch bearer for the wizard. The other option is to give the fighter abilities that break immersion and end up being as magical as the wizard's spells. Then you don't have a fighter, you have a wizard with a sword. A method similar to WFRP could work. Not to mention being insanely fun.

Love this idea, however, how do you make those rounds in between fun for the player playing the wizard. Waiting 3 rounds between turns kind of sucks.

Perhaps give every spell a secondary effect, almost like fireworks bursting through the sky while a meteor is about to come through (at least for big "ritual" like spells). So the wizard deals 1d6 damages to players caught in it until the big gun comes off, and when that does they do hte actual spell.

This solves the problem of the bored wizard player who risks a chance of not even doing anything for 3 turns because his other teammates protect him (and wasting a spell) and doesnt throw the fighter into magic guy with a sword catagory *though i still think that should be an optional tree path for a warrior class*.

 

[DonTadow]

My big hope for the fighter is that I can have a player say they want to play either of the following and both be happy:
* a tough guy with a sword
* a tough guy with a sword, who was raised on the mean streets of Calimport and incorporates improvised weapons and martial arts into his attacks, and who wants to be a member of the Order of the Crown

This is why I'm hoping (praying) for a modular class system. No more Monks and Barbarians. LEt me build my own. I want to play a barbarian who has honed a kick-butt martial arts style and has his own custom made brass knuckles he made off the teeth of his first kill.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Yeah, multi-round cast times suck. I think all combat spells should have a maximum of 1 full round to cast. IMO, a casting roll is the way to go. A failed roll should have consequences, from simply, say turning a party member blue for 1d3 days to centering the fireball on the wizard. There's a reason wands of wonder are fun, lol. The chance of failure or catastrophic failure brings dramatic tension to the encounter. The wizard should fail often enough so the fighter's consistency shines, but not often enough to be frustrating.

 

[Wormwood]

When I want a simple, "old-school" fighter, the Slayer is there with a dripping blade and feral grin.

When I want a "Tank" with battlefield control and durability, the Knight raises his shield.

When I want a mythic hero with abilities out of legend, the Weaponmaster grins from atop a pile of mook skulls.

I would mourn the loss of such varied thematic options in 5e.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Perhaps give every spell a secondary effect, almost like fireworks bursting through the sky while a meteor is about to come through (at least for big "ritual" like spells). So the wizard deals 1d6 damages to players caught in it until the big gun comes off, and when that does they do hte actual spell.

I REALLY like this idea. And it wouldn't even be completely without precedent. Heat Metal had a growing effect, although not with needed concentration. Small pelting meteor shards for a round or two in a (possibly) movable area in anticipation of the Big Frickin' Meteor sounds cool and flavorful.

and doesnt throw the fighter into magic guy with a sword catagory *though i still think that should be an optional tree path for a warrior class*.

I would mourn the loss of such varied thematic options in 5e.

Yes. I would hope people that dislike supernatural Fighters would respect the option being available for those of us who do. With enough caveats that the choice is not only player controlled, but group of DM controlled, their inclusion shouldn't really offend anyone. I wouldn't even mind if the option was held for a supplement, making the base classes the classic archetype and adding on in a later book.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

Yes. I would hope people that dislike supernatural Fighters would respect the option being available for those of us who do. With enough caveats that the choice is not only player controlled, but group of DM controlled, their inclusion shouldn't really offend anyone. I wouldn't even mind if the option was held for a supplement, making the base classes the classic archetype and adding on in a later book.

That's just silly. Everybody knows, Fighters Can't Have Nice Things.

Joking aside, the upgrades made in 4e to the Fighter was one of the things I found most enjoyable (even though I haven't played one yet). Power selection is varied enough that you can choose between grit and gonzo. You can go from full on tactical (weaponmaster, knight) to skull cracking bruiser to archer (slayer). All with one class. I would also have liked to see Warlords rolled into the class as a type of fighter. A case can be made for just calling them Warriors, bundled under the Martial power source and rolling the Rogue in as well. Powers stay relatively the same, riders, keywords, and class features make them fill their role.

 

[Mr. Patient]

Fixing the fighter is simple, leave him as is and fix the magic system. 3e broke the fighter by making spells too easy to cast. Interrupting a wizard is insanely difficult. You have to ready a partial action to hit him when he begins casting. Even then, he gets a concentration check. This is again something Gary got right. In AD&D, the higher level the spell, the harder it is to get off. Meteor swarm takes nine segments to cast, which means it takes 2-3 rounds to cast. One hit from anything ruins it. You can't even use your dex bonus to dodge, or move at all. Now, I'm not saying 5e needs to go back to tracking segments, but some method of making spells harder to cast simply must be implemented, else the fighter will always be a torch bearer for the wizard. The other option is to give the fighter abilities that break immersion and end up being as magical as the wizard's spells. Then you don't have a fighter, you have a wizard with a sword. A method similar to WFRP could work. Not to mention being insanely fun.

I strongly agree on interrupting spellcasters. That's the best solution for reining them in, I think. Can you elaborate a little more on the WFRP method? It's a casting roll of some kind? Like Spellcraft, sort of?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

What i liked about the 4e fighter:

If you strip him of all his powers, he would still do its job very well. He has a cool battlefield control mechanic.
Claims, that nothing makes sense don´t make sense at all: it is a game, and the base traits are not too unrealistic.
The fighter of 4e can exploit the fact, that you need to open your guard when you attack a different enemy.
The impression, that the fighter is a second class fighter comes from 3.5 actually, where the rogue deals his great sneak attack damage (which was nice actually) but transitioned badly into 4e strikers.
Take strikers (other than the warlock maybe) out of the system, and reduce hp of monsters accordingly, and suddenly wizards and fighters deal enough damage to e called cometent at actually killing.

I want a 4e fighter without powers (and maybe a more realistic marking system) and without strikers that overshadow his combat abilities.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I strongly agree on interrupting spellcasters. That's the best solution for reining them in, I think. Can you elaborate a little more on the WFRP method? It's a casting roll of some kind? Like Spellcraft, sort of?

Sure. A caster has a magic stat. It can range from 1-4 (5 if you have a familiar). Each spell has a casting number. You roll a number of d10s equal to your magic statistic. You can choose to roll less dice if you want, and it's often a good idea. If the dice total the casting number or greater, the spell works; however, if you roll doubles, you roll on a table where bad stuff happens. For doubles, it's generally something minor - a cold wind blows through the area, milk curdles, potions are spoiled, etc. Triples are bad. Quadriples are really, really bad. Think of the failure tables as wild magic on steroids.

 

[drothgery]

I strongly agree on interrupting spellcasters. That's the best solution for reining them in, I think. Can you elaborate a little more on the WFRP method? It's a casting roll of some kind? Like Spellcraft, sort of?

I hate to be the rat bastard 3.x/4e dead-ender on this, but allowing spellcasting to be interrupted easily makes playing a spellcaster really suck either results in people not playing spellcasters or in DMs ignoring the mechanic and playing monsters stupid (the latter being what usually happened back when I was playing 2e in college).

 

[Elf Witch]

Sure. A caster has a magic stat. It can range from 1-4 (5 if you have a familiar). Each spell has a casting number. You roll a number of d10s equal to your magic statistic. You can choose to roll less dice if you want, and it's often a good idea. If the dice total the casting number or greater, the spell works; however, if you roll doubles, you roll on a table where bad stuff happens. For doubles, it's generally something minor - a cold wind blows through the area, milk curdles, potions are spoiled, etc. Triples are bad. Quadriples are really, really bad. Think of the failure tables as wild magic on steroids.

As someone who often plays mages this would make me stop. I don't get the whole lets penalize one class to make another class better.

One of the problems with interrupting mages in combat comes from feats that let you add pluses to your concentration check and the ability to max out skills. If skills were reigned in then making that concentration check would be much harder.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Not in core!

 

[Gort]

The 3E fighter could wear heavy armor without wasting a feat to do so.

Didn't bother reading past that in your post because you obviously know nothing.

Gort has received an infraction and been booted from this thread. No klaatu barada nikto for you. Plane Sailing, ENworld admin