D&D 5E Hopes for the 5E Fighter

[JRRNeiklot]

Fixing the fighter is simple, leave him as is and fix the magic system. 3e broke the fighter by making spells too easy to cast. Interrupting a wizard is insanely difficult. You have to ready a partial action to hit him when he begins casting. Even then, he gets a concentration check. This is again something Gary got right. In AD&D, the higher level the spell, the harder it is to get off. Meteor swarm takes nine segments to cast, which means it takes 2-3 rounds to cast. One hit from anything ruins it. You can't even use your dex bonus to dodge, or move at all. Now, I'm not saying 5e needs to go back to tracking segments, but some method of making spells harder to cast simply must be implemented, else the fighter will always be a torch bearer for the wizard. The other option is to give the fighter abilities that break immersion and end up being as magical as the wizard's spells. Then you don't have a fighter, you have a wizard with a sword. A method similar to WFRP could work. Not to mention being insanely fun.

 

[Hassassin]

Fixing the fighter is simple, leave him as is and fix the magic system.

As he is in 3e or as he is in 4e?

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I was using 3e as a base.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

... and a new edition brings me crawling back to the boards

I think what I'm reading from many of the posts in this thread is that there is no default Fighter (or combat style). This is because you are fixated on specific class mechanics. You can separate fighting into 'like a fighter', 'like an archer', 'like a monk' and create a class for each.. or simply give every character (or every martial character) the options to develop their own combination of movement, armour, weapons and style.

When WotC talk about options, I hope this is what they plan.

 

[Ahnehnois]

But for me, I prefer cinematic LotR moments like Legolas single-handedly taking out the Oliphants and its riders and then riding it down as it falls. And I want to be able to do that at Heroic Tier without having to make a series of difficult skill checks either.

I want powers and Tome of Battle style maneuvers to be an option for those like me who want more cinematic heroics. I'm cool with superhuman wuxia/anime style awesome-ness. Bring it on!

This has to be one of the hardest things to read I've seen in the past few days. You want a character to be able to do something that caused theaters full of moviegoers worldwide to let out a collective groan? Without making any substantial character choices or spending any resources? Without any chance of failure? Before reaching 10th level in a game that runs at least 20?

Why have rules at all then?

I think that there's a role for that kind of stuff, but I think that's what epic levels and optional addons are for (if not, than what are epic levels for?). If you want to start a game epic and play wuxia that's fine with me, but I don't want the game restricted solely to that style. Frankly, if one of my players tried a stunt like that, his character would be dead before he hit the ground.

I'll pass on the death spiral and fatigue mechanics. No thanks on the "gritty" stuff. I get enough drudgery in real life. In the game, I want to be a BIG DAMN HERO!

If I were going to emulate something heroic and cinematic from LotR involving a fighter, I'd want to do Boromir's last stand and death scene. That was epic.

 

[Dragonblade]

This has to be one of the hardest things to read I've seen in the past few days. You want a character to be able to do something that caused theaters full of moviegoers worldwide to let out a collective groan? Without making any substantial character choices or spending any resources? Without any chance of failure? Before reaching 10th level in a game that runs at least 20?

In my theater everyone clapped and cheered.

Not without chance of failure or using resources. Just without having to make a number of difficult checks. The 7th level Rogue PC in my Pathfinder game can already do this so its not like being cinematically cool is some new concept for 5e.

I think that there's a role for that kind of stuff, but I think that's what epic levels and optional addons are for (if not, than what are epic levels for?). If you want to start a game epic and play wuxia that's fine with me, but I don't want the game restricted solely to that style. Frankly, if one of my players tried a stunt like that, his character would be dead before he hit the ground.

No. I like epic, but its so hard to get there for so many reasons. After playing D&D for 25 plus years, I'm tired of struggling through the "gritty" lower levels. When 4e allowed you to feel like a hero from level 1 it was a breath of fresh air.

I'm cool with optional 0 level rules, but I don't think they should be the default. Newbies to the game shouldn't have to struggle to be heroic, not when they can go play something like God of War 3 and are mowing through hordes of mooks right from the get go. Though I think that is another debate entirely.

 

[Hassassin]

No. I like epic, but its so hard to get there for so many reasons. After playing D&D for 25 plus years, I'm tired of struggling through the "gritty" lower levels. When 4e allowed you to feel like a hero from level 1 it was a breath of fresh air.

There are rules for starting at whatever level you want in 3e. What's the problem with that system?

 

[Dragonblade]

There are rules for starting at whatever level you want in 3e. What's the problem with that system?

First of all epic is broken in 3e. Second of all, like I mentioned before, campaigns always seem to start at level 1, and die by level 10. I'm one of the only DMs I know that has consistently DMed a group from level 1 to 20.

Over the years I have heard the same broken promises from so many DMs. "Just trust me, we'll start at level 1, but then you'll get to all the cool high level stuff soon enough."

But what happens? The game ends, the DM quits, or burns out, etc. I've realized the only way I'll ever be able to consistently play the PCs I want to play is for the game itself to break away from this notion that low level should be gritty and high level should be godly. I don't need to be godly, but I'm sick to death of being gritty. Cinematic heroics should come in heroic tier.

 

[Hassassin]

First of all epic is broken in 3e. Second of all, like I mentioned before, campaigns always seem to start at level 1, and die by level 10. I'm one of the only DMs I know that has consistently DMed a group from level 1 to 20.

Over the years I have heard the same broken promises from so many DMs. "Just trust me, we'll start at level 1, but then you'll get to all the cool high level stuff soon enough."

But what happens? The game ends, the DM quits, or burns out, etc. I've realized the only way I'll ever be able to consistently play the PCs I want to play is for the game itself to break away from this notion that low level should be gritty and high level should be godly. I don't need to be godly, but I'm sick to death of being gritty. Cinematic heroics should come in heroic tier.

And if "1st level" was more cinematic, but the "gritty levels" were in the core, what makes you think anything would change? Maybe you should just have chosen a game more carefully and/or insisted on higher starting level?

In any case, it seems clear there are players who want very different levels of power in their games, so it makes sense to me that the lower levels cater to one group and the higher levels to another.

 

[Dragonblade]

In any case, it seems clear there are players who want very different levels of power in their games, so it makes sense to me that the lower levels cater to one group and the higher levels to another.

The problem with levels is they imply that you must start at 1 and proceed up the chain. I don't like the idea that level should also determine play style.

Play style in terms of gritty vs. heroic should be a "dial" that is not predicated on level.

5e should have level 1 be anything from 1e style 4 hp wizards with a single spell to their name, to 4e style 30 HP heroes with multiple powers depending on how you set your dial for grittiness vs. cinematic play.