D&D 5E How Can D&D Next Win You Over?

[ForeverSlayer]

I believe the 4E community is large enough that 5E can't succeed without it, and it doesn't need to be a majority for that to be true. A 4E rejection would compound 5E not being adopted by others, as I don't expect much of the OSR to adopt 5E and due to the fervor of a lot of Pathfinder fans there are going to be significant holdouts there.

If Wizards wanted the 4th edition crowd then they wouldn't even have created Next.

I think you are giving the 4th edition crowd a little too much credit.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

If Wizards wanted the 4th edition crowd then they wouldn't even have created Next.

I think you are giving the 4th edition crowd a little too much credit.

WotC wants both, not either/or. 4E wasnt delivering the numbers WotC wanted, but at the same time they arent going to get the numbers they want without the 4E community. They need to get everybody, not just one camp or they other. Like it or not, 4E is a significant part of what D&D is right now.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

WotC wants both, not either/or. 4E wasnt delivering the numbers WotC wanted, but at the same time they arent going to get the numbers they want without the 4E community. They need to get everybody, not just one camp or they other. Like it or not, 4E is a significant part of what D&D is right now.

Where is your proof that says 4th edition is a significant part of D&D right now?

You have absolutely no idea how many play people 4th edition and how many play 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. You are mistaking hope and personal opinion for fact.

From what we can tell, 4th edition didn't have enough support to keep it going so if we are going to guess on what we can see then I would say the 4th crowd isn't going to bring in the numbers like you hope.

All you want is to be able to say that the 4th edition was the ones who got Next going and kept them going. 4th edition was not the "god" of all editions of D&D so I don't know why you assume it's followers would be the same.

The failure or Success of D&D Next will rest on the shoulders of everyone, not the 4th edition crowd, not the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd.

 

[GodDelusion]

After considerable deliberation, our group has decided to simply ignore D&D.NEXT and continue our support of Paizo and Pathfinder until such time that we stop gaming or Paizo retires the game.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Where is your proof that says 4th edition is a significant part of D&D right now?

You have absolutely no idea how many play people 4th edition and how many play 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. You are mistaking hope and personal opinion for fact.

From what we can tell, 4th edition didn't have enough support to keep it going so if we are going to guess on what we can see then I would say the 4th crowd isn't going to bring in the numbers like you hope.

All you want is to be able to say that the 4th edition was the ones who got Next going and kept them going. 4th edition was not the "god" of all editions of D&D so I don't know why you assume it's followers would be the same.

The failure or Success of D&D Next will rest on the shoulders of everyone, not the 4th edition crowd, not the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd.

5E needs everybody. Everybody includes 4E. If 5E fails 4E, it fails at getting everybody and fails overall.

Don't get me wrong, getting 4E fans at the expense of everyone else is a recipe for failure. I'm just saying that getting everyone else at the expense of 4E fans is ALSO a recipe for failure.

 

[Bluenose]

Where is your proof that says 4th edition is a significant part of D&D right now?

70,000+ DDI subscribers, based on the numbers enrolled in that Group on the WotC forums. What that turns into in number of players is hard to say, but it's certainly more than enough people buying a product to get onto the ICV2 list. Dresden Files did, with a maximum of 10,000 items sold.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

70,000+ DDI subscribers, based on the numbers enrolled in that Group on the WotC forums. What that turns into in number of players is hard to say, but it's certainly more than enough people buying a product to get onto the ICV2 list. Dresden Files did, with a maximum of 10,000 items sold.

There was already a thread about DDI numbers on the Wizards thread and it was shown that those numbers lead you to essentially nothing because there were a lot of people who cancelled their subs and they still show up and other people were locked in to a yearly sub who were just going to finish it out and not renew.

I asked for proof, not speculation.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm sorry but I don't think the 4th edition crowd was "that" large.

The success of Next will be down to "everyone", not the 4th edition crowd.

The 4E crowd powered 4E for 4 years. The 3.0 crowd powered 3.0 for 4 years. The 3.5 crowd powered 3.5 for 4 years...

Every edition of D&D is a failure in the sense that it didn't last forever, but a success in that it lead to a new edition rather than no game and no game company at all anymore...

 

[ForeverSlayer]

The 4E crowd powered 4E for 4 years. The 3.0 crowd powered 3.0 for 4 years. The 3.5 crowd powered 3.5 for 4 years...

Every edition of D&D is a failure in the sense that it didn't last forever, but a success in that it lead to a new edition rather than no game and no game company at all anymore...

3.0 and 3.5 are the same edition so I don't know why you split them up, even after you have already been given proof.

Your second paragraph is pure speculation. There was a lot more that 4th edition could have done but if you don't have enough people buying it then you move on to the next edition.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

3.0 and 3.5 are the same edition so I don't know why you split them up, even after you have already been given proof.

Your second paragraph is pure speculation. There was a lot more that 4th edition could have done but if you don't have enough people buying it then you move on to the next edition.

4E's relative success or failure has nothing to do with it being a significant part of the D&D community, too significant for 5E to ignore.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

3.0 and 3.5 are the same edition so I don't know why you split them up, even after you have already been given proof.

Your second paragraph is pure speculation. There was a lot more that 4th edition could have done but if you don't have enough people buying it then you move on to the next edition.

3.5 may just be a half edition or revision, but it consisted of a set of new core rulebooks and was followed by splat books tieing into these core rulebooks. The rules change may not seem significant enough to warrant calling them a new edition, but the marketing and the effect on the audience was like a new edition - almost everyone bought these new core rulebooks, and much more then people would have bought a second printing with errata or a specific splat books and monster books.

 

[drothgery]

3.5 may just be a half edition or revision, but it consisted of a set of new core rulebooks and was followed by splat books tieing into these core rulebooks. The rules change may not seem significant enough to warrant calling them a new edition, but the marketing and the effect on the audience was like a new edition - almost everyone bought these new core rulebooks, and much more then people would have bought a second printing with errata or a specific splat books and monster books.

Also worth noting is how badly the changeover to 3.5 hurt third-party publishers; most that managed to stay in business started concentrating on their own house systems at that point.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Also worth noting is how badly the changeover to 3.5 hurt third-party publishers; most that managed to stay in business started concentrating on their own house systems at that point.

I only followed very small subsets of the d20 OGL market - mostly Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, Iron Heroes (both Malhavoc/Monte and Mike) and DragonStar (FFG?), so I didn't really notice.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I believe the 4E community is large enough that 5E can't succeed without it, and it doesn't need to be a majority for that to be true. A 4E rejection would compound 5E not being adopted by others, as I don't expect much of the OSR to adopt 5E and due to the fervor of a lot of Pathfinder fans there are going to be significant holdouts there.

While there's no way to be certain of the exact size of the old-school, pathfinder, and 4e factions of the fanbase (let alone how much crossover there is among them), it's not /that/ hard to see which of them WotC is courting, and we could speculate about why...

First, there's the official line: They're trying to bring everyone together under the 5e umbrella. That's probably mainly for Hasbro management consumption, it says: "all that 'lost revenue,' you see from Pathfinder and retro-clones, all those amazing sales from the 80s, we can get you that, honest! Let us try one more edition, please."

Then there's the playtest and all the L&L articles and what they actually deliver vs what they promise. The actual deliverables, are, as you might expect, a mixed bag of past edition bits. There's 'Hit Dice' which are like healing surges in way (but really not), and like hit dice in being, well, dice. But, the preponderance of it, and the whole 'modular' aproach points to a return to classic D&D, when variants apeared in the pages of The Dragon and every DM had his own house rules and the game was very fluid.

So, my conclusion, and this is mostly me reading between the lines and speculating, is that 5e is mostly going after re-capturing the classic D&Ders. They can't just re-print (though they're doing that, too) or make 5e into a retroclone, it has to be 'classic D&D, but more so, with the D&D nameplate' to win out against it's own past eds and retro-clones. The reason this makes business sense is that D&D was a fad in the 80s, and more middle-school boys played it back than then have played it in the two decades since. All those grown up boys, with 40-something incomes, are a prime target market.

3e and 4e fans are not really the market. 3e fans are getting all the fanservice they could ever want from Paizo, and nothing short of Heinsoo & Collins committing sepuku or using a time-machine to prevent the publication of 4e is likely to get them back. 4e fans must, logically, contain some uncritical-early-adopters, fans of the D&D name who don't care about what's between the covers, who will just play anything and everything that's labeled D&D. WotC might have a pretty good idea of the proportion based on the sales of para-D&D boardgames like Dungeon Command and Castle Ravenloft. But, whether it's 10% or 90% or anything in between, they must figure the balance is expendable. Besides, it's not like there'll be a 4e-retro-clone competing with 5e. 4e fans will have the choice of playing the exact game they have now, with no future support, or giving in and playing 5e, or at least buying 5e to adapt new material to their 4e campaigns.

If nothing else, I can see the rancor of the edition war souring WotC on the idea of trying to service either the 3e or 4e splinter of the larger fan base. They might even figure that they'll get more of both, in aggregate, coming back if they do absolutely nothing for either, than they would get of one side if they just chose a side.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

3.5 may just be a half edition or revision, but it consisted of a set of new core rulebooks and was followed by splat books tieing into these core rulebooks. The rules change may not seem significant enough to warrant calling them a new edition, but the marketing and the effect on the audience was like a new edition - almost everyone bought these new core rulebooks, and much more then people would have bought a second printing with errata or a specific splat books and monster books.

It's not a half edition at all, it's a revision. I know you and a few others want to be able to classify it as another edition so you can say it only lasted a few years but the fact is it wasn't.

4th edition did a revision of almost all the PHB classes and they reprinted all the revised core rules so what's the difference? If DDI didn't exist then they would have more than likely reprinted everything together in an updated PHB but by putting it online they saved a great deal of money. I'm sure they had plans to do this for the rest of the classes but unfortunately the game came to a halt before this could happen.

 

[Tony Vargas]

4th edition did a revision of almost all the PHB classes and they reprinted all the revised core rules so what's the difference?

Smoke and mirrors, really, or the publishing equivalent. They revised the 3 core books with very different (and less balanced) classes, and lots of changes to feats & items, and even a few to races.
They just labeled the revised classes 'sub-classes' (eventually), and cut & shuffled (and duplicated) the content of three books over 5, two of them in boxed sets. With some errata, some double-talk, and some labeling, they avoided actually admitting it was a half-ed.

 

[Steely_Dan]

They just labeled the revised classes 'sub-classes' (eventually), and cut & shuffled (and duplicated) the content of three books over 5, two of them in boxed sets. With some errata, some double-talk, and some labeling, they avoided actually admitting it was a half-ed.

No, they didn't, please stop spreading lies (due to your transparent agenda).

Mod Note: Folks, don't make it personal, or you'll find yourselves removed from the conversation like Dan here. ~Umbran

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It's not a half edition at all, it's a revision. I know you and a few others want to be able to classify it as another edition so you can say it only lasted a few years but the fact is it wasn't.

4th edition did a revision of almost all the PHB classes and they reprinted all the revised core rules so what's the difference? If DDI didn't exist then they would have more than likely reprinted everything together in an updated PHB but by putting it online they saved a great deal of money. I'm sure they had plans to do this for the rest of the classes but unfortunately the game came to a halt before this could happen.

The difference is that the game is designed the way to run a 4th Core Rulebook Fighter alongside a 4th Essentials Fighter. Sure, you could choose not to update a 3.0 Fighter, but why would you? The 3.5 Fighter allowed the same things as the 3.0 Fighter, but had a better skill list. The 4E Core Fighter and the 4E Essentials Fighter are 3 different classes - Weapon Master (Core), Knight (Essentials) and Slayer (Essentials) put under the Fighter umbrella.

There is definitely one similarity between Essentials and 3.5 - they both presented new core rulebooks. But Essentials went out its way to not replace the previous classes, just add to them. 3.5 did put in full replacement of the classes. There is no reason whatsoever to not play a 3.5 class over a 3.0 class, all classes received improvements and revisions that made the 3.0 version obsolete.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

3.5 may just be a half edition or revision, but it consisted of a set of new core rulebooks and was followed by splat books tieing into these core rulebooks. The rules change may not seem significant enough to warrant calling them a new edition, but the marketing and the effect on the audience was like a new edition - almost everyone bought these new core rulebooks, and much more then people would have bought a second printing with errata or a specific splat books and monster books.

I never bought a single 3.5 product. The blatant money grab ran my group screaming back to first edition. I thank WOTC for that, at least.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I predict that if 5E ends up giving 4E a wide berth, 50-75% of the 4E community will reject it and as a result it will fail WotC's sales goals and 6E will arrive in 3-5 years, if D&D isn't shelved completely.

I just have a hard time believing that. Most 4e players did play and enjoy other versions of the game, and yet were (to put it diplomatically) open-minded enough to accept 4e. But despite their enjoyment of other versions of the game and their open-mindedness, if 5e looks anything like the rest of D&D, the majority of them will bail?

I get that some people really like 4e over all other game systems and won't switch, but I just can't imagine that the majority of the community is that way. I think the average 4e player could pick up the 2e core books right now and have a good time.

Now, I agree that 5e is unlikely to be a rousing success, with the 4e crowd or anyone else, but I think that will be more on overall merit than on a failure to please one particular group.