D&D 5E How Can D&D Next Win You Over?

[Someone]

One of these powers belongs to a class who gets his abilities from ritualistic formulas. Other to a class who can do supernatural things because he sings very well. Other gets his powers from very powerful outsiders. Other because he believes very firmly into a cause. Other from communing with nature spirits or nature itself. Other has supernatural ancestors and gets innate powers. Which ability belong to what class?

[sblock=spell 1]
Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:

Targeted Dispel
One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Area Dispel
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.

Counterspell
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.[/sblock]

[sblock=spell 2]
Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:

Targeted Dispel
One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Area Dispel
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.

Counterspell
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.[/sblock]

[sblock=spell 3]
Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: 3 (or, in one case, 4)
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:

Targeted Dispel
One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Area Dispel
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.

Counterspell
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.[/sblock]

[sblock=spell 4]
Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:

Targeted Dispel
One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Area Dispel
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.

Counterspell
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.[/sblock]

[sblock=spell 5]
Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:

Targeted Dispel
One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Area Dispel
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.

Counterspell
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.[/sblock]

[sblock=spell 6]
Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:

Targeted Dispel
One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Area Dispel
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.

Counterspell
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.[/sblock]

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

How was the original 4e magic missile different from a ranger shooting a bow?

The Magic Missile required an Implement. The Ranger's attack had either a +2 bonus or he made two attacks per round.

How many powers can be summed up as "deal some damage and daze"?

And that'S not a big problem. In fact, having two different powers that say "deal damage and daze" means you have a character that can daze twice per encounter (well, assuming they are encounter powers), whereas when you have only one power, you can use it only once (but probably can do something different in place of the second daze.)

When we play D&D, it's not just reading the rulebooks, it's applying the rules, and "stuff" happens that have an in-game meaning. Be it more "mechnanically focused" tactical implcations or story implications. A Diplomacy Check to convince someone to give up his hostage and a Diplomacy Check to get a better deal use the exact same mechanics, but they have totally different effects. A Stealth Check to sneak into a building and steal something and a Stealth Check to get behind an enemy so you can sap are two different things, but the mechanics still look exactly the same.

How is a fighter making a close burst 1 attack with his sword different than a wizard doing something identical with martial crossed out and arcane written in and the [W] replaced with a d8?

Well, you can make up any type of power, just like I could make up a feat that says "Prerequisite: Fighter; Cast Spells like a 5th level Wizard" and say this makes 3E broken or balanced or whatever.
What matters is that these powers are designed to help the Fighter achieve his role. The Wizard will generally not have that many melee or Close Burst 1 powers - his close bursts are usually larger, so he can exercise some crowd control, but more likely will be a Close Blast, Area Burst or Ranged Attack. The Fighter won't have that.

Moreover, the difference between a Fighter and a Wizard making close attacks is that the Fighter will mark every enemy in that blast, giving them an incentive to attack him and not his allies. The Wizard mostly gives an incentive for the enemy to spread out more the next time (or is punishing them for not spreading out before), which fits neatly his Controller role.


Also, doesn't 3E have lots of spells shared between classes?
The Bard'S spell list strongly overlaps with the Sorceror/Wizard spell list, adding a few Cleric spells. And yet, no one is saying Sorceror/Cleric would be the same class as Bard. (Or, if you insist on the spontanous aspect, wasn't there some spontaneous caster divine class in a later supplement?)

Combat powers exist to serve tactical roles. Their significance is not determined by how different they read on paper, but how different you use them in the game.

 

[Incenjucar]

A bow ranger and two-weapon ranger play fundamentally different despite potentially having all the same class features and powers.
But a two-weapon ranger and a rogue and an avenger will play fairly similarly. Paladins play similar to fighters, invokers play similar to wizards.

I heartily disagree. The tactics required of each class vary greatly, unless you go out of your way to play one class like another, which usually requires using options introduced in splat books for the sake of filler, or simply failing to grasp how your class works.

My invoker plays absolutely nothing like a pyromancer.

All classes have the same base tactics as well. Start a fight, find a way to use your Encounter powers. Focus fire. Defenders defend, controllers control. Save Dailies for harder or boss fights then throw down black cards as soon as possible.

While the daily/encounter thing is usually true, because they're, you know, more-powerful and limited, that's a pretty poor summation of tactics. It's like saying that "press with the infantry and send in the cavalry" is the summation of tactics for the civil war.

How was the original 4e magic missile different from a ranger shooting a bow?

* Doesn't require hands.
* Doesn't require equipment.
* Different range and no range penalty.
* Force damage, which gives it specific interactions and options.
* Uses no ammunition.
* Uses implement effects instead of weapon effects.
* Can't be used to block stuff up or hurl a rope like an arrow can.
* Has specific feats that modify it in different ways than arrows.
* Is Arcane, so is affected by things built around Arcane abilities.
* Doesn't leave shattered arrows behind.

And that's not even getting into the differences between it and a ranger's abilities.

But yeah TOTALLY the same.

How many powers can be summed up as "deal some damage and daze"?

Or just summing up any attack is "deal some damage and have an effect."

This is a poor game to play and you've been around more than long enough to know it.

How is a fighter making a close burst 1 attack with his sword different than a wizard doing something identical with martial crossed out and arcane written in and the [W] replaced with a d8?

Here's a couple power from somewhere:

Daily
Standard Action
Close burst 1
Target: Each creature in the burst you can see
Attack: Ability vs. Defence
Hit: 1d10 + Ability modifier damage, and ongoing 5 damage (save ends)
Miss: Half damage.
Kicker: If you have the right class option, targets you hit are also knocked prone.

Daily
Standard Action
Personal
Effect: You shift your speed, including through squares occupied by enemies. Until the end of your next turn, you can squeeze without penalties to your attack rolls or speed.
Targets: Creatures whose spaces you shift through
Attack: Ability vs. Defence
Hit: 3d8 + Ability modifier damage, and you push the target 1 square.
Miss: You push the target 1 square.

Encounter
Standard Action
Target: One creature
Attack: Ability vs. Defence
Hit: 2d8 + Ability modifier damage, and the target treats all squares as difficult terrain until the end of your next turn. You and your allies ignore difficult terrain until the end of your next turn.
Kicker: If you have the right class option, until the end of your next
turn, your allies can ignore difficult terrain even if you miss.

Encounter
Standard Action
Target: One creature
Attack: Ability vs. Defence
Hit: 2d10 + Ability modifier damage. If the target leaves the space it currently occupies before the start of your next turn, it takes an extra 1d10 + Ability modifier damage.

Quick, which are spells, which are prayers, and which are exploits?

Spell (you left the d10 in there), Exploit, Prayer, Spell (d10 again). Of course you removed things like damage types and other keywords, which do in fact have a significant effect in the game.

So maybe, just maybe, you're not someone who should be playing a fighter. Is that really so bad?
Besides, fighters were always worth playing in 3e.

Fighters were always worth dipping 1 level into.

They could be great damage dealers and are the kings of damage in Pathfinder.

Bet they're pretty great in Exalted too.

The wizard comment is true. They needed a little more love at low levels and a little less crazy at high. But that didn't require changing every other class. And the majority of the game was quite playable. Wizards were only weak/crazy at the very low levels and very high. With the later rarely being reached. Seems silly to change so much over content a small minority is going to experience.

Also known as the "sweet spot." That thing 4E was designed to be entirely composed of.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The 4e fighter itself effectively "suppresses" any style of play that does not involve use-limited powers that you have to know to be able to attempt

This statement is false.

No class can do that by itself.

In the context of pre-Essentials 4e, the structure of the game gives everyone limited-use powers, both daily and encounter. It also gives all characters at-will powers, and, as you well know, also allows for improvisation (the infamous page 42). While a player who willfully chooses not use encounter and daily powers will be less effective, overall, than one who avails himself of those resources, the concentration of PC effectiveness in dailies is much less in 4e than it was in 3e and earlier games. So playing an early-4e fighter and eschewing dailies as a stylistic choice is not /as/ sub-optimal as simply failing to play a tier-1 caster in 3.x was. If the greater effectiveness of a fighter using dailies compared to one not doing so could be said to 'suppress' the latter, then the existence of the tier-1 classes in 3e could be said to 'suppress' all other classes in the same way and to a greater degree.

In the context of post-Essentials, the Fighter class includes a Slayer and Knight that do not have daily powers, at all.

Most importantly, in the actual context of this thread (and forum), in the context of 5e, having limited-use options for the fighter, even if they were similar to 4e's AEDU, would in no way prevent having other, unlimited-use options.

The 3e fighter wasn't broken, didn't unbalance the game, grind it to a halt, or render it unplayable. Quite the contrary.

That is correct, the imbalanced classes in 3e were the casters. The 3e fighter was an elegantly-designed, customizeable, robustly-balanced class. A veritable paragon of game design. It was just unable to retain relevance in the face of the very badly balanced 3.x version of the traditional Vancian casters.

It was part of a better-balanced, more smoothly running iteration of D&D than had previously or subsequently been accomplished.

Actually, it was part of 3e, which was not nearly so well-balanced nor smooth to run as 4e. But, it was certainly one of the better bits of design in 3.x, along with the innovative but not-quite-fully-realized 'modular multi-classing' that it introduced, no doubt about that. If the 3e fighter, rather than daily-oriented caster, had been used as an inspiration for 4e's common advancement structure, 4e might have turned out even better.

That's a moot line of speculation, though, as 5e has abandoned the concept of common advancement and the benefits thereof.

4e was almost certainly never the majority of D&D games, and I doubt it was ever even the plurality.

There's no way to know the exact numbers. For instance, at conventions I attended during 4e's run, LFR and Pathfinder games were studiedly equal in number (as if they were scheduling with that intent, in fact), and other scheduled D&D game ran about half 4e and half all others (including Pathfinder). Post-essentials, LFR imploded at my local conventions, and 4e dropped off in other venues, and games explicitly tagged as 'Essentials' never really appeared.

But the assertion that 4e represents some ignore-able, tiny minority is flatly absurd.

 

[Ahnehnois]

This statement is false.

No class can do that by itself.

This is true in a sense; the system as a whole excludes styles of play.

Most importantly, in the actual context of this thread (and forum), in the context of 5e, having limited-use options for the fighter, even if they were similar to 4e's AEDU, would in no way prevent having other, unlimited-use options.

Right. That's what I said. Options. Put it somewhere, just don't require everyone to use it.

That is correct, the imbalanced classes in 3e were the casters. The 3e fighter was an elegantly-designed, customizeable, robustly-balanced class. A veritable paragon of game design. It was just unable to retain relevance in the face of the very badly balanced 3.x version of the traditional Vancian casters.

This would be the old "imbalanced" vs "abusable" distinction. That said, no doubt they can be abused, and that reining them in would be a good idea. Limitations are good for flavor too.

The 3e fighter is good in principle, but the dead levels and mediocre high-level feats hurt its potential for advancement.

If the 3e fighter, rather than daily-oriented caster, had been used as an inspiration for 4e's common advancement structure, 4e might have turned out even better.

No kidding! Feat-like or skill-based spellcasting would be great.

The audience probably wouldn't accept it though. Sadly.

But the assertion that 4e represents some ignore-able, tiny minority is flatly absurd.

Not saying that. I'm saying that there are many small minorities, and that 4e being the newest thing on the block doesn't really enhance its relevance of its fans beyond the others. 4e fans are a significant group, and some of their ideas are relevant and productive. They just aren't better than everyone else.

 

[Jester David]

Spell (you left the d10 in there), Exploit, Prayer, Spell (d10 again).

Wrong, wrong, wrong and right.

Of course you removed things like damage types and other keywords, which do in fact have a significant effect in the game.

Keywords. Not really. Just denotes power source, and usually a equivalent for other power sources. They're just something to hang other mechanics onto.
Damage types are increasingly irrelevant in 4e as resistances and immunities go away as "unfun".

 

[Neonchameleon]

I've had an abundance of both (and played both myself). Druids are more popular than clerics in my games, and fighters are more popular than anything. They compare very well. The fighter heads into melee and mashes and racks up the treasure, and the druid summons some allies, chucks some nonstandard attack spells, and heals him up afterwards. They play together very well.

Ah yes. The druid that doesn't use Wild Shape, head into melee, and rack up the kills quite nicely himself when added to his bear companion. The druid that isn't actually leveraging his abilities.

Well, there's the ability to attempt, and then there's the ability to do so with a chance of success that makes sense. My sense is that it is sufficiently hard to go off the book that this is not satisfied.

It's a hell of a lot easier to go off the book in 4e than in other editions.

Go check out the incantation rules in Unearthed Arcana. Come up with a version of fireball that suits your needs. Roll the skill checks. Good luck.

Translation: Use house rules. Unlike Essentials, Unearthed Arcana is explicitely presented as house rules.

That said, D&D postulates magic as a separate entity from the rest of the rules of the game world. Always has. (And should; it's magic, after all).

Here we disagree. D&D has historically called its high level fighters superhuman, and has a hit point mechanic that's partially magic. And magic is how the world works. Magic therefore has never been a separate entity and shouldn't be.

A bow ranger and two-weapon ranger play fundamentally different despite potentially having all the same class features and powers.
But a two-weapon ranger and a rogue and an avenger will play fairly similarly. Paladins play similar to fighters, invokers play similar to wizards.

Now either you don't know how to play the classes to their strengths or you are poor at tactics. Putting things simply:

A Two Weapon Ranger is a very high damage glass cannon. Seriously low AC but does more damage per round than any other class. Where they belong is tucked in close to the fighter for protection, and to be able to focus fire with as many people as possible.

An Avenger needs to isolate and gank - they have the tools to do it. If they try to stand under the fighter's wing on the battle line they are just going to look like a complete chump because their major class feature (Oath of Emnity) simply doesn't work of they are in the middle of a line fight. Pick one foe, neutralise it, and pound it into the dirt. On the other hand the Avenger can have the AC of a full scale tank fighter and can force enemies to come away with it.

A Rogue needs combat advantage. +2 to hit and +2d6 damage almost doubles the rogue's DPR at low levels - and the sneak attack isn't too far off this even at higher levels. If a rogue attacks without combat advantage the rogue's attack sucks. In order to be doing their job properly, a rogue should be attacking with combat advantage every round - and that means either forcing or exploiting an opportunity. On the other hand they have tools to do both among their powers - both a lot of mobility for flanking and a lot of powers that daze, blind, or the like.

Avenger, Two Weapon Ranger, Rogue. Try to play any one the same as any other and you are going to look like a complete chump. (Well, the two weapon ranger can work in either of the other styles as long as the difficulty setting is on low).

All classes have the same base tactics as well. Start a fight, find a way to use your Encounter powers. Focus fire.

Congratulations. Your Avengers are focus firing so they are right in the middle of the enemy so they don't get Oath Of Emnity. They suck. Your wizards are playing very differently from mine - last time I played a wizard he regularly had either one or both of his encounter attack powers unused. Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation rocks against minions but isn't so hot against regulars and Lesser Visions of Avarice (I forget its real name) is no use at all once the melee has started, but is utterly outstanding at preventing people reaching combat.

So if that's your grasp on basic 4e tactics, no wonder you have problems with it. This is once again down to your limited understanding of 4e.

Here's a couple power from somewhere:

No there aren't. There are a few powers from which you have taken away information. Information like what is actually happening in the fiction. You've taken away what the power does (the keywords), in most cases how it does it (weapon, implement, or neither). You've taken away what sort of attack it is - whether it's mundane and blockable, whether it's a mental attack, whether it's something that attacks the constitution, or whether it's something that can be ducked.

Those are not powers. Those are skeletons. And calling them powers is thoroughly mendacious.

Quick, which are spells, which are prayers, and which are exploits?

Not one single one of them is any. Because they are all incomplete.

Discussing Essentials at the same time as regular 4e is a dodge. Essentials, while made for new players, was also design to evade much of the criticism that had been levelled at 4e. And it came out two years into the edition, too late to save it as people had already made their mind and customers had been lost.

Essentials is part of 4e. If you are talking about 4e as a whole, you must include essentials if you want to offer an honest argument. Especially as Essentials has been out for about half the life of 4e. It's not a dodge, merely a reflection that the game has grown.

Had WotC started with something similar to Essentials and books like those we've seen the past year, we would not be talking about 5e.

Why? In 2006 WotC were busy working on 4e, only 3 years after 3.5 debuted. 3.0 was pulled from the shelves after only two and a half years. And the splatbook model is unsustainable - what do you want? Primal Power 3? Or Heroes of the Negative Energy Plane.

I was saying after Heroes of Shadow that 4e needed only one more class. A simple to play wizard. And it finally arrived in Heroes of the Elemental Chaos. Right now there are about two products I want - Birthright and Spelljammer for 4e.

One of these powers belongs to a class who gets his abilities from ritualistic formulas. Other to a class who can do supernatural things because he sings very well. Other gets his powers from very powerful outsiders. Other because he believes very firmly into a cause. Other from communing with nature spirits or nature itself. Other has supernatural ancestors and gets innate powers. Which ability belong to what class?

Thank you. I can't XP you, alas.

And note in this case that the full text of the spell was reproduced. No important information was stripped away - unlike in Jester Canuck's example.

 

[Tony Vargas]

This is true in a sense; the system as a whole excludes styles of play.

The statement I was replying to, however, was directed against the 4e fighter, specifically.

And, really, I'm not so sure a mechanic constitutes a 'style.' If having a fighter with daily powers 'suppresses' the 'style' of not having daily powers, then d20 suppresses the 'style' of using a randomization technique with a normal distribution (while GURPS supports that 'style,' for instance). That's just silly. The same goes for a common advancement structure across classes somehow impeding styles. While the specifics of that structure may do so, the mere fact of one does not - as the wealth of outright classless games (including universal and multi-genre examples) amply demonstrate.

OTOH, whether an adventure covers a day or a few days or months of time in the imagined world /is/ a stylistic choice, and one that is constrained by the presence of resources pegged to the 24-hour day or 8-hour/12-hours-apart extended rests. The more profound the significance of those resources, the greater the barrier to playing in other styles. Traditional Vancian put virtually all of a caster's, particularly a wizard's, power in his daily spells, which made balancing them a matter of tightly restricting how often they could recover those resources. 4e merely took class balance out of the equation by giving everyone dailies, but only reduced the pacing issue by reducing the dependence on such powers substantially - it didn't eliminate it. 5e is going all-in, and stating explicitly that the game is to be played only in 'days' with prescribed amounts of challenge in each day - an obvious necessity to /try/ to balance the return of daily-power Vancian casters vs the return of power-less non-casters, but one that narrows the range of styles it can support.

Right. That's what I said. Options. Put it somewhere, just don't require everyone to use it.

Here is what you said:

There's also a reason the 5e fighter doesn't have powers (and thus is an improvement over the "old" 4e fighter, which I guess in now analagous to a cassette player or a typewriter by your logic): because the 4e fighter was popular with some people, but anathema to more.

Don't see a call for 'options' there.

No kidding! Feat-like or skill-based spellcasting would be great.

The audience probably wouldn't accept it though. Sadly.

There's certainly a core to the D&D fanbase that rejects change, even when it's for the better. While an edition that amounts to little more than a re-print or consolidation of past editions might appeal to that core, it also might fail as they continue to stick tight to their favored versions of the game.

:shrug: While I can't see the wisdom in it, I can see the motivation to /try/, and it's ultimately WotC's (Hasbro's) line, and their decision. Just as it's our decision whether to buy into it or no.

Not saying that. I'm saying that there are many small minorities, and that 4e being the newest thing on the block doesn't really enhance its relevance of its fans beyond the others. 4e fans are a significant group, and some of their ideas are relevant and productive. They just aren't better than everyone else.

What you said (quoted above) was that the 5e fighter didn't have powers because the 4e fighter was "anathema to more." Sounds like you're presenting an (imagined) majority hatred of the 4e fighter as grounds for never presenting the option of a fighter with powers.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Ah yes. The druid that doesn't use Wild Shape, head into melee, and rack up the kills quite nicely himself when added to his bear companion. The druid that isn't actually leveraging his abilities.

My druids have used plenty of wild shape. I even played a shifter once (now that was overpowered). Still, everyone has fun.

It's a hell of a lot easier to go off the book in 4e than in other editions.

?

Translation: Use house rules. Unlike Essentials, Unearthed Arcana is explicitely presented as house rules.

That's why the spell example is inappropriate. Access to spells has always been class-restricted in D&D; going outside that box is the sort of thing you need variant rules to cover. The merits of that distinction are debatable; but magic and not magic are apples and oranges.

Magic therefore has never been a separate entity and shouldn't be.

Um, my (4e) fighter tries to cast fireball.

 

[Ahnehnois]

And, really, I'm not so sure a mechanic constitutes a 'style.' If having a fighter with daily powers 'suppresses' the 'style' of not having daily powers, then d20 suppresses the 'style' of using a randomization technique with a normal distribution (while GURPS supports that style, for instance).

The "style" in question involves playing a fighter and making tactical choices that don't involve resource management. Many D&D players do not like tracking resources, for a variety of reasons (conveinence and plausibility are both relevant). Classically, hit ponts and equipment are the only things everyone has to track (and people handwave a lot of equipment issues).

As to your second point, you're entirely right. However, D&D's linear probability distribution is part of its heritage; "D&D" itself is a big meta-style. So this is an acceptable conceit for most people.

Feel free to retract it if it's "not what you meant."

It's what I meant. Creating a first level core fighter that requires you to pick a daily power is a no-go; it forces everyone down that road. Creating another non-core class (warblade?) that does so, or adding on a "superpowers" module that modifies the classes (including fighters) is fine. Options.