D&D 5E How can i obtain a proficiency in a musical instrument if im not a bard

[Son of the Serpent]

but what about long weekends? i identify as a noble. a PRINcess. its in my background. can i not do what the unwashed do in 5 in but a mere 3? i've a ball to attend. i only work 3 days because dancing and hedonism is itself a tiring responsibility you see. i've a private tutor and my butler can do all the writing on the test as he's quite fast and the note taking as i traded my last one who was arthritic for the fresh one when i'd worn him out a bit.

sorry. its where my head went. everyone is making good points but i had a weird thought.

 

[Salthorae]

Xanathar's Guide to Everything: Resolving Activities

Most downtime activities require a workweek (5 days) to complete. Some activities require days, weeks (7
days), or months (30 days).

The XGtE downtime training rules quoted up thread refer to “workweeks”, which are defined as five days, not seven and not ten, so that’s a total of 50 - INT mod x 5 days to learn a tool or language at 5 gp per day.

@BlivetWidget Thanks for the XGE excerpt. I hadn't seen that portion of the section. I would still say that means learning activity is 70 - IntModx7 days to learn per the default rules then, because it's not resolving in a workweek but requires "X weeks", so it doesn't resolve in one workweek.

Actually, it isn't. The only default setting-ish in 5e is the "D&D Multiverse" which includes multiple settings.

This is a digression to a degree, but for the purposes of the PHB/DMG/MM... sure I guess? Even though the PHB is riddled with references to Faerun, including the Weave which is a FR core concept being described as how spellcasters cast spells.

And so far all the published adventures, except Ghosts of Saltmarsh, and Adventurers League are set in FR or start in FR. So, it might not technically be the default setting, I guess, but when 95%+ of published Adventuring material exists in it, it makes rules and such as this unnecessarily confusing if you don't find the right sentence as BlivetWidget did above.

Though it also doesn't make sense in relation to FR to have learning skills based on weeks, which they define as 7 days in the XGE quote, but then have a setting that a big majority of people play in based on published modules or adventures have a default of 10 day weeks.

So do what works for you. I use "weeks" as "weeks" in the game world, so 10 days for my games.

 

[Hriston]

@BlivetWidget Thanks for the XGE excerpt. I hadn't seen that portion of the section. I would still say that means learning activity is 70 - IntModx7 days to learn per the default rules then, because it's not resolving in a workweek but requires "X weeks", so it doesn't resolve in one workweek.

The excerpt you posted up-thread literally says that it “takes at least ten workweeks”. I’ll quote it in full:
“Resources. Receiving training in a language or tool typically takes at least ten workweeks, but this time is reduced by a number of workweeks equal to the character’s Intelligence modifier(an Intelligence penalty doesn’t increase the time needed). Training costs 25 gp per workweek.”

 

[Salthorae]

The excerpt you posted up-thread literally says that it “takes at least ten workweeks”. I’ll quote it in full:
“Resources. Receiving training in a language or tool typically takes at least ten workweeks, but this time is reduced by a number of workweeks equal to the character’s Intelligence modifier(an Intelligence penalty doesn’t increase the time needed). Training costs 25 gp per workweek.”

Ugh, this is why memory sucks and I should re-look at things before posting.

I kind of liked the XGE updated rules, but I guess I hadn't read them as thoroughly as I thought I had given what @BlivetWidget noted on the definitions of time for the XGE rules. I read workweeks and weeks the same.

That point + workweek = 5 days makes me really dislike them now.

50-25 days to become professionally proficient in a tool or language seems incredibly fast to me.

It took me a year of immersive study (at least 8 hours a day of study) to become Professional Working Proficient in a language (reading/speaking/writing all three which is what D&D gives you with a langauge) in college.

Yes you can gain spoken proficiency more quickly, but that is just that, spoken proficiency. D&D grants you essentially fluency in 25-50 days, which is two steps up from where I got after a year.

Tools seem even more odd. Does it seem credible to become professionally profient in a tool after only 25-50 days of study/work with it?

I guess it doesn't matter for my games as I used a mix of the two 250 days - IntModx10 days @ 1 gp per day as that seemed more reasonable to me from a "how long should it take"

Even that... Apprenticeship in a trade in the medieval period was 7-10 years. @BlivetWidget - maybe medieval apprenticeship terms are a good basis point for your wizard college and you should push it back to 6 years, not 6 semesters!

Eh. @Son of the Serpent wanted the 5e knowledge of this stuff. They have that now, so I don't need to continue to belabor/debate this. I have what works for my games. Enjoy your guys' training styles for your games

 

[BlivetWidget]

@Salthorae I would still describe the XGE rules as 35-70 days. Just because only 25-50 of those days are active tutelage doesn't mean the student doesn't have homework on the weekends or need time to process the information... Anyway, 35-70 days to learn a language is actually a crazy pants long time for a game system that expects you to go from zero to demigod hero in 84 adventuring days!

(That's not my preferred timescale, and I know it's not yours either, I'm just pointing out what's there).

On the other hand, the languages in DnD may have more in common than we realize. My wife knows enough Spanish and French that she can read Italian reasonably well without any sort of education in it. I don't doubt she could be fully literate in Italian in less than 10 weeks if she was able to spend 40 hours a week on it.

As for tools, I taught myself dip pen calligraphy in a handful of weeks. Am I great at it? No, but I'm much better than someone with no practice. I would say I have proficiency but not expertise, if we want to use game terms. I think what you're calling professional-level proficiency would be better mirrored by what DnD calls expertise, rather than proficiency (though as far as I know, there's no tool expertise - a discussion for another time).

Don't get me started on how difficult it is for a wizard to get arcana expertise, though!

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I use both methods. The Xanathar's one for full-time, and I reenvision the PHB one as part-time, which you can do along with your adventuring or whatever. I also play pretty fast and loose with the costs

But even then, the quality of proficiency I base on Intelligence and additional time. So if you are brilliant, yeah you can become fully competent in a few weeks. For most people that's more about becoming good enough to get by. In game I would describe the quality of work (with tool proficiency) or languages accordingly. It would take long term use for those narrative descriptions to change. For instance, I treat characters that grew up bilingual (racial tongues for instance) as fully fluent with the regionally appropriate native accent, while those who picked up that extra language with a later proficiency initially start with a degree of fluency and accent based on their Intelligence.

 

[Salthorae]

As for tools, I taught myself dip pen calligraphy in a handful of weeks. Am I great at it? No, but I'm much better than someone with no practice. I would say I have proficiency but not expertise, if we want to use game terms. I think what you're calling professional-level proficiency would be better mirrored by what DnD calls expertise, rather than proficiency (though as far as I know, there's no tool expertise - a discussion for another time).

I hear what you're saying on language groups, and I agree. It's one of the reasons I wanted to learn Latin before tackling its children languages.

That said dwarven is a far cry from elven is a far cry from orc or draconic or infernal. At least I'd think so. Primordial is the only grouped language I'm aware of and you can already communicate with an Auran speaker in Ignan, ala the French/Spanish/Italian convergence you noted.

On Tool proficiency... I can't find any stat blocks for something like a Smith or Expert on DNDBeyond, so if you needed to represent their skill level It'd be with some other stat block. The only Smith I KNOW about is from SKT, Ghelyrn Foehammer and his NPC stat block doesn't even list Smith's tools as a proficiency! Though we know he must be because he's a blacksmith!

So, my assumption is proficiency = professionally capable. XGE Downtime rules say that this is how you earn money "Working":

Strength (Athletics), Dexterity (Acrobatics), Intelligence using a set of tools, Charisma (Performance), or Charisma using a musical instrument.

A commoner proficient in something is going to average a modest lifestyler. Sounds about right for skilled labor.

Sure a master smith or something is better represented by expertise, but there is a big gap from Professional/competent at a skill to Master/top level.

YMMV with that, but I view proficiency in a set of tools as "able to earn a living using downtime rules semi-reliably" = professional aptitude. Expertise is just that, expertise, a high level "expert".

Don't get me started on how difficult it is for a wizard to get arcana expertise, though!

I know, right? Ugh.