How Can You Politely Say, "Your Character Sucks?"

[Dannyalcatraz]

DannyA, there was no strength bonus for ranged weapons in 2e. You could have had an 18/00 strength and this would make no difference to your damage with a bow. Even strength bows were not standard equipment in 2e. I believe they appeared in the Complete Fighter's guide IIRC.

The only bonus you could get to damage with a bow would be through specialization.

So, no, dump statting strength in 2e for an archer character does not affect his capabilities one whit.

You're mis-remebering- Strength bows showed up in 2Ed.

2EDPHB, 2nd printing, 1995, p96

Money and Equipment

Bows:

Bows come in various shapes and sizes. The power of a bow is measured by its pull. The greater the pull, the more Strength needed to work the bow. Thus, it is possible for characters to have bows that grant them damage bonuses for high Strength...
<snip>
Heavier pull bows are not normally any more expensive than standard bows. The exceptions to this are those bows that enable the fighter to gain bonuses for exceptional Strength (18/01 or greater). These bows must be custom created an cost three to five times the normal price. These bows are also more difficult to string or use effectively for those without exceptional Strength. These characters must roll a successful bend bars/lift gates roll to string or use such weapons (again, think of the suitors in Odysseus' household).

(Emphasis mine.)
And essentially the same text shows up on p73 of the first printing of the 2Ed PHB.

IOW, strength bows were in 2Ed from the very start, as described in the standard equipment section.

 

[Hussar]

Hrm, I wonder if that was in the first printing of the 2e PHB. I certainly don'T remember seeing that in my PHB.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

As noted, its in mine at pg. 73.

However, it should also be noted that even within the first printing, there are some variations. My version, bought when they first hit the stands noted "...a multi-classed bard retains all the abilities of his class" (p45) without listing any multiclassing options for bards. My buddies who bought their 2Ed PHBs just a few months later had the line about multi-classed bards excised (which is also absent from the 2Ed PHB's second printing).

However, I can't say whether the language about Strength bows was similarly excised from theirs as well.

All I can say is that both my first and second printing 2Ed PHBs include the language about Strength bows.

 

[billd91]

You're mis-remebering- Strength bows showed up in 2Ed.

They even appear as an option in the 1e DMG.

Thus, the character will employ a heavier missile or a more powerful bow and heavier arrows or larger sling missiles to gain the advantage of strength. To do so, he must obtain the special weapon or weapons, and this is within the realm of our adjudication as DM as to where and how it will be obtained, and how much cost will be involved.

The 2e PH takes it from there and presents it right out to the players as an option and suggests a price multiplier for it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yep, yep...though the 1Ed DMG's language reads a bit more like an optional rule as opposed to the 2Ed PHB's.

 

[Raven Crowking]

The clear solution here is to let Bob play Dipsy the Teletubby if he wants to. The other players will just have to figure out how Dipsy fits into their serious political game. Or they can be sent out for pizza.


RC

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Fortunately, that was never much of a problem because 1e/2e didn't encourage DMs dishing out treasure based on player wish lists. A PC could never count on ever finding them (or making them) and so they could never form a rational strategy around requiring them.

One of the best things about the gauntlets of ogre power (and gloves of dexterity) was that they worked best as compensatory magic items - you got the most benefit out of them by giving them to PCs not already blessed by a high stat. The mentality was significantly different.

Eh, then you'd have the cheese-weasels telling everyone to put an 8 in Strength and make sure those gauntlets were on their Wishlists.

The 4e way is at least pretty blatant: if you want to be a decent Fighter, you put a 16 in Strength. Period. No fancy tricks, no tricky traps.

Cheers, -- N

See, we solve that problem by bringing back the ability minimum for classes. It would even fit with the 4E philosophy of avoiding newbie traps. Creating a character with a low score in your class's primary attack stat is one of the few ways left for people to screw up their character, so why not just make a minimum 16 (after racial adjustments) be required and also require that one of your two +1's at the every 4th level stat increase be devoted to it?

It's probably a good idea in general, even without trying to make old school stat items work.

I like how this idea "evolved". Though I might set the prerequisite at "15", 2 points higher than for most multi-class feats.

I think one of the challenges is creating only two "sensible" choices.
- Max out your stat to get a better benefit than with the item
- Pick the lowest stat to get the most benefit out of the item.

I guess that's very difficult, if not impossible to achieve.


Example:
Gloves of Ogre Strength (Heroic Tier)
Property: Your strength score sets to 18 if it's lower than 18.

Gloves of Giant Strength (Paragon Tier)
Property: Your strength score sets to 21 if it's lower than 21.

Gloves of Titan Strength (Epic Tier)
Property: YoursStrength score sets to 24 if it's lower than 24.

Somewith a strength score of 16 could achieve these item's values at 8th, 18th or 28th level. So he'd be happy with an item of his own tier for the longest time. But would he be happy to spend all those points for a 16 in his starting score, and raising it all the time?
Someone with a score of 18 or more would need an item higher than his own tier to be interested.

So, what level would we set for this item?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

DannyA, there was no strength bonus for ranged weapons in 2e. You could have had an 18/00 strength and this would make no difference to your damage with a bow. Even strength bows were not standard equipment in 2e. I believe they appeared in the Complete Fighter's guide IIRC.

The only bonus you could get to damage with a bow would be through specialization.

So, no, dump statting strength in 2e for an archer character does not affect his capabilities one whit.

Actually IIRC the specialization for a bow gave +2 to hit instead of +1 to hit and +2 damage and a further attack every second turn...

you already had 2 attacks per round with a bow, i think it didn´t increase at all... so specialization was on the weaker side for ranged weapons... (yeah i know, bonuses to to hit are more important than damage in 4e... it wasn´t back in ADnD since average damage was quite low without strength bonuses (4.5) while you could hit monsters quite good in the beginning (about 40%) and also damage only increased from magic weapons while to hit increased faster than AC at least for fighters)

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Example:
Gloves of Ogre Strength (Heroic Tier)
Property: Your strength score sets to 18 if it's lower than 18.

Gloves of Giant Strength (Paragon Tier)
Property: Your strength score sets to 21 if it's lower than 21.

Gloves of Titan Strength (Epic Tier)
Property: YoursStrength score sets to 24 if it's lower than 24.

So, what level would we set for this item?

I believe 21 Strength is not worth a lot except maybe for a featwith the axe...

I would maybe fill in some gaps:

Level 5: Gauntlets of Bulls strength Str 16
Level 10: Gauntlets of Ogre strength Str 18
Level 15: Belt of Hill Giant strength Str 21 (yes it has 21, but who cares if its 20 or 21^^)
Level 20: Belt of Fire Giant strength Str 23
Level 25: Belt of Frost Giant strength st 25 (marauder!)
Level 26: Belt of Stone Titan strength 26 (still lower than an epic fighter would probably have since you get +8 strength per level and most probably +2 for an epic destiny... this opens up some other destinies)

So you have a smooth increase at reasonable levels, not overpowering and not underpowered... if you somhow feel that 26 is too high, begin with level 6 and leave out the last one, but this would mean 18 Str is already a paragon item...

i believe such items do no har to the system and enforcing warriors to have at least a 15 in their main stat would be reasonable. And I would also add, that the strength gained by such an item doesn´t qualify you for feats.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I believe 21 Strength is not worth a lot except maybe for a featwith the axe...

It's worth something if you're a wizard with a strength of 10. (Starting at 8 with two tier increases.) Remember the purpose was to make the items useful to everyone except those already playing strength-based classes.