How come BBEG coming out never have magic weapons or items?

[Li Shenron]

So how come even guys like Grazzt seem to have non magical weapons? I get that all their attacks are effectively magic, but almost no weapon wielding monsters seem to be able to find even a +1 weapon to use? You think being Demon lords or even just a high ranking Marilith they could swing something like that.

As the others say, I think it's because the game should work also with near-zero magic items, and adding something is generally easier than removing it.

This is not only a balance thing, it is also a gamestyle thing. There are always gaming groups wanting a low-magic campaign, and magic items scarcity is a major element of that, although there are many ways to intend what is "low-magic".

So if you e.g. set the initial situation as a world where magic cannot be made into permanent items, that applies to BBEG as well.

As for the balance, in theory the attunement rule should take care of the problem of amassing lots of magic items from killing monsters. However I do think that the attunement rules need some, well... attuning when you play low-magic. In a zero-magic-items campaign, attuning just doesn't come into play. In a lotta-magic-items campaign, it doesn't matter how many items to take from monsters, you're still limited by attunement. In a few-magic-items campaign however, you might want to decrease the max number of attunable items, otherwise after a while you still end up with PCs having the same amount of attuned items as in the lotta-magic-items case.

Also, truly important BBEG could use ad-hoc artifacts like the Wand of Orcus, and have their own rules which make attunement irrelevant.

 

[CapnZapp]

So how come even guys like Grazzt seem to have non magical weapons?

It's so there's nothing to loot.

 

[CapnZapp]

In other words, he's making an argument about setting consistency, not game balance.

The counter-argument?

Balance needs to trump consistency.

 

[Pauper]

So how come even guys like Grazzt seem to have non magical weapons? I get that all their attacks are effectively magic, but almost no weapon wielding monsters seem to be able to find even a +1 weapon to use? You think being Demon lords or even just a high ranking Marilith they could swing something like that.

Why would a marilith need a magical weapon, especially if its 'normal' attacks already count as magical for bypassing resistances?

You're making a presumption -- magic weapons are cool, thus everyone cool needs a magic weapon -- that isn't necessarily supported in the setting or game design.

--
Pauper

 

[jasper]

So how come even guys like Grazzt seem to have non magical weapons? I get that all their attacks are effectively magic, but almost no weapon wielding monsters seem to be able to find even a +1 weapon to use? You think being Demon lords or even just a high ranking Marilith they could swing something like that.

Dear Mr. Gwarok, ( and you material planes think our names are hard to say)
Why do us Demon Lords don't own many magical weapons? Because y'all are some greedy Mother of (BeeeP). It is bad enough adventuring parties raid my lair at least once a week, twice on holy holiday of good Gawds. Tracking up the carpet. Knocking over and destroying my daughter's tea set. Screaming "You killed my father and stole my ancestry sword! " Only to be put down fast that a flat beer in a pub.
We tried recycling. After cleaning up the carpets, and replacing tea sets, we put the weapons back into the open market. Only to get right back on our door step in a decade or two. (A year is WoTC is doing a demon flavored hard cover). Or we held on to them for a few decades and they would take up all garage space. Then when we would try to sell them on the Prime Plane. Ell Minster, Ill Misery, some big spell caster who is dm's pet would scream we would upsetting the economy.
We even tried funding some dude name Peter Jackson's Travel Movie and sell memorial copies of Sting. Y'all did not buy enough.
So we demon lords just got together and started melting them down. We now have a 76% recycle rate on magical weapons. The rest we sell to World of Warcraft members as loot drop.
Sin Sear Lee
Grazzt.
PS. WIPE YOUR BEEP BEEP BEEP FEET ON THE WELCOME MAT. I AM TIRED OF HEARING THE WIFE GRIPE.

 

[toucanbuzz]

From a game mechanic perspective, like everyone else said, balance.

Once Upon a Time, though, demon lords were a step below demi-gods, with cults and worshippers and hell, those cultists had spellpower. Those demon lords were too badass for mortal trinkets! Sure, a weakling like Thor might need Mjolnir because he's too unimaginative to grow himself some tentacles or claws or the like. But practically, if you start carrying around artifacts instead of just zapping mortals dead with a thought, then mortals are going to want someone to stat up these god-like figures so they can fight them and take their stuff.

So Once Upon Another Time, designers caved to these bloodthirsty players and let them fight gods and take their stuff. Thor got 160 hit points and a 1d8+5 hammer that no one could lift. Then players could brag they took down a god, that Thor begged for mercy before they bitch-slapped him and made him drink from the horse trough. It was a rough time.

Once Upon a Very Recent Time,, designers thought it'd be a good idea to keep dumbing down these near-demigods to dough-like wimps who get whipped by a bunch of 10th level 20-year olds who just started adventuring 2 months ago and had good luck in taking out a goblin chief and his ogre. Nothing more embarrassing than being an eons-old near-divine entity of pure power who has ruled an entire layer of the Abyss for thousands of years by facing down countless droves of balor and pit fiend challengers only to get your butt handed to you by Rick the 22 year old fighter with +1 sword and Sally, who has been studying magic for approximately 6 mortal years. Six. And you get a little pissed off at Sally because she still knows more spells than you. In prior editions, you recall having a lot more oomph.

In summary, demon lords shouldn't need magic items. Maybe the Wand of Orcus artifact, if they had left it alone (originally 50% chance to annihilate anything it touches except other demon lords and gods). But the designers caved, gave us wimpy demon lords that leave you wondering why they wouldn't tote around some magic gear to prop up their sagging arses.

In the old days, demon lords would be handing out magic items like candy to tempt mortals. They wouldn't need a hoard as if they were some kind of mid-level dungeon boss. They're out taking over the demi-planes and corrupting souls, and they don't need trinkets or gold piles.

So that's why demon lords don't tote around magic items.

 

[Satyrn]

Why would a marilith need a magical weapon, especially if its 'normal' attacks already count as magical for bypassing resistances?

You're making a presumption -- magic weapons are cool, thus everyone cool needs a magic weapon -- that isn't necessarily supported in the setting or game design.

--
Pauper

Yeah. After all, Frodo had Sting and the One Ring while the Balrog had nothing.

 

[Pauper]

Yeah. After all, Frodo had Sting and the One Ring while the Balrog had nothing.

Yeah, and Frodo kicked the poor Balrog's...oh, wait.

That was Gandalf who did that. And he was stacked! He had his Cloak of Protection +3 and his Robe of the Archmagi and an Ioun Stone of...wait, he didn't have any of that?

Oh, but he had a kick-ass magical sword! That...wasn't actually magical in the sense of doing bonus damage or being easy to wield? Because all weapons (Sting included) forged by the High Elves in that era glowed in the presence of Orcs?

But he had a staff! Which was basically just his spellcasting focus?

But...but...how did Gandalf beat the Balrog without a bunch of awesome magic items? Oh, because he was basically a Tolkien angel? That's cool, I guess. But wouldn't it be cooler if Glamdring was a +3 vorpal sword?

No? OK then.

--
Pauper

 

[Larnievc]

The Boss has n the game I’m running is wearing or wielding all but one of the magic items I’ve set as treasure. The last one is a wand he cannot use so it’s kept in the poorly locked chest (as tradition dictates).

 

[Jer]

In my games, BBEG will have magical weapons if I think there's a good reason for it. The Demon Lord who wields a cat o' 9 tails forged from the bodies of 9 demons who angered him, where each strand of the whip deals a different kind of damage and screams when it flies through the air. The Orc Warlord who wields and ancient intelligent evil greatsword made of some kind of dark meteoric iron that advises him on how to build his conquests. The Lich who has made a pact with an ancient tome that houses the undead remnants of a deity that enhances his spells for each soul he sacrifices to it. The Giant King who carries a shield made of solid smoke and an axe made of fire.

I'd rather get the monsters bare and add this kind of equipment myself. (Plus it's a whole lot of fun when the players defeat the Orc Warlord and then have to agonize over whether they want to take that sword for themselves or not. If it were just a +1 sword, where's the fun in that?)