How do I deal with a rule lawyer?

[Felix]

The ELs DM ["DM's EL"?] use is just fine, but sometimes PC gets unlucky and then he help them a little with the dices instead of throwing weird antiencounter monsters into the battle. If they do stupid things then it is their own fault if they die.

Understandably; it's part of the DM's job to fudge dice rolls now and then to tip the scales one way or the other. But doing it too often, and especially doing it by using an NPC to do something that the PCs can't, is a sign of a clumsy DM. You say:

however if he just knew the DM better, then he would know that the DM most of the time cheat because otherwise we would be dead.​

I'm curious how often this happens, and also how long you all have been gaming together. If you've been gaming with this DM for years longer than Butosei has, you may simply have gotten accustomed to your DM and Butosei hasn't. If DMNPC interference happens several times a session, then I think Butosei has a point. He may not be expressing his displeasure very well or productively, but that doesn't mean he isn't in some sense justified.

The DM and I have been talking about just kick him out of the group, however he is outside the game a nice guy, but butosei the manslayer rule laywer posses him when he plays D&D. We really dont know how to deal with him except for the simple solution: kick him out. Last time we thought it would be nice to give him some tranquillizer-emotion medicin

I would very much advise against conspiring with your DM to kick Butosei out of the group without first having asked him about it. You may find that a compromise between his rules-lawyering and the DM's rules-tinkering is the best solution.

Possibly my sympathy for Butosei comes from my (now under control) rules-lawyering tendancies, but people tend to exaggerate something that annoys them and downplay something that they like; could it be that Butosei's habits are less volitile, and your DM's use of fudging not as subtle as you suggest?

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Sounds like the DM isn't very good either. A system that tends to favor system mastery in the players tends to cause issues when the DM isn't handling the rules as cleanly as some of the players too. Tell the DM to stop fudging the dice as del said above.

 

[Li Shenron]

...and he tries to make the rules favor his own situation.

I think that's always the worst.

There are people who simply cannot play a RPG by the rules. For some reasons, they don't seem to complain when playing card games, chess or anything else, but they truly believe the purpose of a RPG is to battle with the others to show that they are smarter or more charismatic. Do yourself a favour and ignore them, to discuss with them is pointless...

 

[Hjorimir]

I have been playing with some guys lately (as a PC) and I was wondering at the end: How do I deal with the rule lawyer in our game?

The Rule lawyer in our game is a guy who read rules all the time and always claim that the DM's NPC is overpowered and he cheats too much, however if he just knew the DM better, then he would know that the DM most of the time cheat because otherwise we would be dead. He gloats a lot when the DM does a minor faul with the rules and he tries to make the rules favor his own situation. Also he is a very bad roleplayer, we have a nickname for him: Butosei the manslayer (from a movie called bishomu or something like that), mainly because he does very screwed things which make no sense at all and metagame a lot. What to do with that kind of guy?

To start, I struck out the role-player bit, because that has nothing to do with somebody being a rules lawyer.

Gloating when the DM makes a mistake is poor manners and that should be dealt with outside the game. But to play devil's advocate, is he behaving that way because his pleas for consistent rules have otherwise fallen on deaf ears?

In this hobby of ours, people are pretty quick to string up rules lawyers (or at least run them out of town), but I sometimes wonder why. Sure, rudeness should not be tolerated and some rules lawyers are obnoxious. That said, rules are important to the game. It sets the protocol on how most actions in the game are resolved. If you don't stick the rules, the protocol breaks down and that causes miscommunication. How can players make any kind of sound decision on what their character will do if the players are unsure what rules the DM is going to use (or at least how the DM will interpret those rules).

All I'm saying, is that before you kick the guy to the curb, make sure you understand what exactly is going on, but I think I'd be a bit rude too if I had a nickname like his at the table.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

He also sounds like a guy frustrated with a DM who uses his DMPC as a deus ex machina whenever the PCs are in trouble. That is an incredibly annoying habit for DMs to fall into, and if that is indeed what the DM is doing, then I feel bad for the "ruleslawyer" as well.

If you consider that, then your unilateral "kick him out" ejaculation seems a bit... premature. Find out a little more before you condemn the poor guy.

If he has a problem with the DM cheating in the players favor then he should talk to the DM about it like a human being. Instead from what the OP seems to be saying he acts like an a**. So I stand by what I said. This having dealt with this type before in my own games. If you disagree with something that's going on in the game or how the game is run, there's a way to address it. Pull the DM aside afterwards and TALK to them about your concerns, try to reach a middle ground. Acting like a jerk however is NOT the way to get what you want and just winds up being disruptive for all involved, so away you go. Likewise for the player if he's tried to discuss it with the DM to no avail. He only has himself to blame for still being at the table with someone who doesnt run the game in a way that he thinks is acceptable. So hangs around JUST to be disruptive? Nope, either accept it or leave.

 

[JDJblatherings]

I have been playing with some guys lately (as a PC) and I was wondering at the end: How do I deal with the rule lawyer in our game?
....
What to do with that kind of guy?

enroll the rule lawyer as assitant DM. Have him play hordes of low level baddies when his character is off stage. Take advantage of the players skills and if the player is till annoying bounce him or her.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

enroll the rule lawyer as assitant DM. Have him play hordes of low level baddies when his character is off stage. Take advantage of the players skills and if the player is till annoying bounce him or her.

See that's what I tend to do with rules lawyers and it works better than most would think. Provided that the player isnt an obnoxious jerk who just likes hearing the sound of thier own voice and being right all the time.

In that case they have to leave.

 

[Felix]

If you disagree with something that's going on in the game or how the game is run, there's a way to address it.

I quite agree, but advising notjer to summarily "kick the guy out" isn't the way to address it.

Pull the DM aside afterwards and TALK to them about your concerns, try to reach a middle ground.

Which is why notjer should pull the ruleslawyer aside and talk to him about their concerns, instead of talking behind his back and summarily kicking him out.

Acting like a jerk however is NOT the way to get what you want and just winds up being disruptive for all involved...

Absolutely. Which is why notjer should talk to the guy. Is acting like a jerk and kicking him out without talking to him somehow justified because he takes exception to the DM bending the rules? We still don't know how often or how dramatically the DM bends them, and until we do know, or until notjer and DM seriously consider it, we shouldn't prescribe kicking the a** out.

Likewise for the player if he's tried to discuss it with the DM to no avail.

You know that this has happened? I don't; that's why I was asking questions instead of saying "kick him out".

Nope, either accept it or leave.

Very philantrhopic.

 

[DM-Rocco]

I have been playing with some guys lately (as a PC) and I was wondering at the end: How do I deal with the rule lawyer in our game?

The Rule lawyer in our game is a guy who read rules all the time and always claim that the DM's NPC is overpowered and he cheats too much, however if he just knew the DM better, then he would know that the DM most of the time cheat because otherwise we would be dead. He gloats a lot when the DM does a minor faul with the rules and he tries to make the rules favor his own situation. Also he is a very bad roleplayer, we have a nickname for him: Butosei the manslayer (from a movie called bishomu or something like that), mainly because he does very screwed things which make no sense at all and metagame a lot. What to do with that kind of guy?

As a DM, I go by the law, I am right, don't ruin the flow of the game now, send me an e-mail about it later. If you are right, I will make a note and use that information in the future. If the rule means the death of a character, then I might take a moment to review it on the spot or reverse the death later.

As a PC, I too know the rules and I ise the same logic. Don't ruin the flow of the game. Unless it will cause a party member to die, I would tell the individual to hold arguemnts for a later time.

Also, as the books state, the DM is always right. I too use the, NPC to the rescue tactic from time to time. I always place a NPC in the party for just this case. Even if I am using a module, I frequently am changing things around and sometimes, okay - a lot, I get carried away and place something that the party should not have encountered, or I altered the encounter to much and it is slightly more than the PCs could handle. That is my error and the NPC is the way to fix it without ruining the flow of the game. Plus, if the NPC is worthless or doesn't hold his own wieght, the PCs will let him go out of the party. I think your player doesn't want the NPC in the party because then he gets less XP.

Anyway, I always recommend talking to the player first. Get into his head and find out where he is coming from and why he has such a problem with the rules, game, or whatever. Then ask him to hold comments until after the session and deal with these things off the table.

Recently I started a new game, at 1st level. I don't like a lot of the stuff the DM does, he can be a jackass at times and he has some new house rules I don't like, but he is funny and I value him as a friend. I could rules lawyer him a bit, but he too knows the rules as well as I and rather than get into a lot of debate and waste time, I have vowed, to myself, to sit back and let whatever happens happen. So far, he has allowed a few things that are not in the rules. Little things. Both for and against us. I keep my mouth shut and just enjoy and try and have a good time. I suggest you tell your friend to do the same. Meta gaming and rules lawyering isn't always fun.

 

[delericho]

Also, as the books state, the DM is always right.

Just a quick note: nowhere in any D&D book I have ever seen, does it state this. Indeed, the attitude that the DM is always right has been the death of more than one otherwise perfectly good game group.