How do Psions compare to arcane casters?

[BryonD]

I assume he is using overchannel to get ML 13, then spending the extra 2 points on Empower, correct? And he either takes 3d8 damage each time OR spent a 3rd feat on Talented AND spends his focus each time. Three feats (or 2 + damage) and spending effective 7th level slots to do it.


An 11th level wizard with Sudden Empower can do the same thing.
They are limited to 1/day, but get it with no spell level cost and no damage and it only costs 1 feat. Let them take the feat 2 or 3 times to match the psion's investment and you're there at lower per event cost. (and, again, the Wizard's dice will scale with CL for free, unlike the psion's)

 

[FoxWander]

I guess I should have emphasized a few things in my post first, and maybe added an addendum or two.

I was gonna go through and re-emphasize how all of my points overcome or completely bypass some of the limitations and annoyances inherent to magician casters. But if that isn't obvious by my original post to some of the dissenters here, then nothing I could add or re-emphasize will make it so.

But a few things, in no particular order...
- If you want your "wizard" to have a "familiar" then the psions "familiar" beats the pants off any other familiar, hands down!! How can anybody actually argue that psicrystals are not vastly superior to familiars!?!!? The laundry list of immunities from the construct type doesn't make them better than, say, a rat!?!?! Hardness 8 AND all those immunities, isn't better than the just the hit points a familiar has!?! If having a "familiar" isn't your thing, then this is a moot point BUT a psions "familiar" is completely optional- the feat could be used for anything else if you don't want one. But it's a class feature for the wiz/sorc. True they don't have to go thru the ritual to get one (which BTW cost 100 gold compared to the psion's nothing to get a psicrystal) but then they also can't just take a feat if they don't want a familiar at all. But to try and say a psicrystal is BETTER than a familiar... please!!! What are you smoking?

- Psionic focus IS a benefit because its a "limited resource" that magicians don't have u]AT ALL[/u]!! Magicians don't even have access to such a resource, limited or not. Simply having the option of psionic focus makes it a benefit (and a pretty big one at that).

- The ability to manifest while grappled may not come up very often, but the simple fact that psions aren't completely screwed while grappled is huge! Everyone knows that if you want to shut down the wizard, you grapple him. Unless he has an 'escape clause' spell like d-door ready, he's done. Casting options to stay effective while grappled are so few as to be non-existent. Whereas a psion can manifest ANY power they like. Just because they have to make a concentration check to do so (like any caster while grappled) in no way lessens that they have their entire repertoire of powers open to them. A psion can keep right on blasting while grappled, while a wizard without his "escape clause" is effectively out of the fight.


Again, I have to emphasize- I don't think psions are too powerful or unbalanced. I like psionics. In fact, I prefer it over magic because, as I also said, psions are the "wizard" done right.

If you were to make a laundry list of all the things that are annoying, or stupid, or just NOT how a "fantasy wizard" should be done- then you'll find that psions neatly side-step almost all of those annoyances in all the ways I listed.

Nothing I listed (aside from the first few which were repeats from Spatula's post and the main things people point to when comparing psionics and magic. And remember I said those aren't problems of psionics but of play styles- overall psionics are "balanced".) makes a psion overpowering or unbalanced. They're just little tweaks here and there that patch the holes in magical casting or bypass the annoyances of magicians. It's the cumulative effect of ALL those tweaks that push the edge toward psionics as a better way of doing magic than magic is. That's what I have a problem with... and it's not really problem even, I think psionics are fine. But the fact that they do magic better than a magician is just irksome.

I'll end by quoting myself to re-emphasize the main gist of my post.

Now you might get from all this that I don't like psionics- but you're wrong. I'm most upset in that psionics feel more like what "fantasy magic" should be than actual magic does! If you picture the iconic wizard from the typical fantasy novel- the psion comes closer to actualizing that idea than a D&D wizard or sorcerer ever could. Strip out the 'psionics' and 'mentalism' fluff and the EPH "magic system" is far superior to the Vancian default of D&D.

The next edition of D&D should re-invent the psion as the "wizard" class, use the Warlock for "sorcerers" and then mold the beguiler/warmage/true-necromancer "specialist wizards" into the next edition "Psion". Wouldn't a Beguiler work better as the iconic "telepath"? Focus the Warmage on fire and you've got Charlie from Firestarter, focus on force effects and you get Akira.

 

[Psion]

I caught your statement FoxWander. It's the specifics of your assessment that I think you are off on. To wit:

If you want your "wizard" to have a "familiar" then the psions "familiar" beats the pants off any other familiar, hands down!!

I didn't think the argument here was that psicrystals weren't better, but that they weren't a big balancing point and psions have to give up a feat for the benefit.

- Psionic focus IS a benefit because its a "limited resource" that magicians don't have u]AT ALL[/u]!! Magicians don't even have access to such a resource, limited or not. Simply having the option of psionic focus makes it a benefit (and a pretty big one at that).

I have to rebut you here again: No, it's really not. It doesn't matter that wizards don't have access to that resource when none of their abilities require it. That's like saying a kid who has a dollar in his pocket is just as well off as a kid who has no money but gets everything in the store for free!

Wizards gain plenty of stuff psions don't get. Reserve feats anyone? So that wizards can't do some things psions can isn't saying much, especially considering that they get MUCH more support. So that point's a non-starter.

Wizards also don't have psionic focus as a cost of their metamagic. So unlike psions, wizards can use a metamagiced spell two rounds in a row, do anything else in their arsenal, since they don't have that whole "regaining focus" thing to worry about.

 

[BryonD]

I have to rebut you here again: No, it's really not. It doesn't matter that wizards don't have access to that resource when none of their abilities require it. That's like saying a kid who has a dollar in his pocket is just as well off as a kid who has no money but gets everything in the store for free!

This is exactly right.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

This is exactly right.

Yep, I gotta agree here, too. It's like saying a fighter is better than a paladin because they get all those bonus feats without taking into consideration that the paladin gets other stuff that may be just as good but in a different way.

Or, perhaps it's morelike saying a specialist is better than a regular wizard because they get an extra spell per level without considering that the regular wizard gets access to all schools.

The extra spells are good, but so is access to all schools.

Psionic Focus can be an advantage, but the wizard has plenty of other advantages, too.

 

[Seeten]

Ill take your energy missile and raise you a wraithstrike.

 

[Plane Sailing]

An 11th level wizard with Sudden Empower can do the same thing.

I know nothing of the various 'sudden' feats - they were introduced in one of the splatbooks, I presume.

My considerations of the classes are based on what is available about them in the SRD - that's the baseline for the classes.

At that baseline the fact that a psion can use 2 feats to do 33d6 at 11th level is pretty wacky, and way overshadows anything that core wizards can do at or around that level.

The problem is with the overchannel feat (which is behind a large number of psionic 'exploits') and which gives a capability which is far beyond that which wizards can get - essentially the ability to accept a bit of damage and cast spells of higher level than you can normally get at your caster level (the equivalent of psions using more pp than they should be able to manifest at that caster level)

Regards,

 

[Nifft]

Who needs Sudden Empower? Take a Metamagic Rod. No feat, just 3x/day you can lay down smack.

Get a Metamagic Rod of Quicken, too.

Watch the poor Psion cry.

Cheers, -- N

 

[BryonD]

I know nothing of the various 'sudden' feats - they were introduced in one of the splatbooks, I presume.

My considerations of the classes are based on what is available about them in the SRD - that's the baseline for the classes.

At that baseline the fact that a psion can use 2 feats to do 33d6 at 11th level is pretty wacky, and way overshadows anything that core wizards can do at or around that level.

The problem is with the overchannel feat (which is behind a large number of psionic 'exploits') and which gives a capability which is far beyond that which wizards can get - essentially the ability to accept a bit of damage and cast spells of higher level than you can normally get at your caster level (the equivalent of psions using more pp than they should be able to manifest at that caster level)

Regards,

First, I understand that psionics are in the SRD, but I don't think it is fair to compare a psion to a wizard with the sudden feats disallowed. The development seems clearly in parallel and it is only the chance choice to squeeze psionics into one main book that pushed elements into the "core" SRD when the mirror image arcane stuff is not.

Second, I disagree that the issue is really about overchannel. I think the issue is disintegrate. Remember, pre-3.5 this spell/power was pretty much save or die and the 2 dice per level change is a nerf. (A nerf I like.) The point was to still be near to save or die but limit the effectiveness against really massive opponents. So, 22d6+ damage is the way it works. Frankly, at 11th level 22d6 (which any core wizard can toss out) is a serious blow to most anything. Spending more resources to push 22d6 up to 33d6 is most often beyond the point of diminishing returns. It is supposed to destroy you if you don't save and it does that rather well either way. And is still nerfed compared to the old version either way.

The Sudden Feats allow wizards to get the EXACT same effect, only without the damage.
The psion way is simply overkill that burns them out that much more quickly.

And, set every bit of that aside, if you still think overchannel is the problem, then don't use overchannel. There are broken feats and broken spells out there. If they take away fun, don't use them. But don't blame the class for the effect of a broken feat.

 

[BryonD]

Who needs Sudden Empower? Take a Metamagic Rod. No feat, just 3x/day you can lay down smack.

Get a Metamagic Rod of Quicken, too.

Watch the poor Psion cry.

Cheers, -- N

Good point!!! Pure core SRD and there you go.