How do Psions compare to arcane casters?

[arscott]

Some minor points:

3- Built-in Heighten Spell.

As previously mentioned, augmentation isn't as good as heighten: In addition to low-level powers being stopped by globes of invulnerability no matter how many points you sink into them, a handful of powers can't even be augmented to raise the save DC. A quick check through the first-level power list shows Distract, Psionic Grease, and Telempathic Projection as powers that give saves that can't be augmented.

C- They gain hit dice as the psion levels and thus can gain feats.

I think you're misinterpreting the rules hear. My reading of this is that the psicrystal has the effective HD equal to the psion's level, just as a familiar has effective HD equal to the Wizard's level. That's for determining effects and such, and has nothing to do with feats or skill points

 

[Slaved]

The 11th level psion player in a campaign I'm in has just realised that he can can overchannel and throw out a 33d6 disintegrate. Several times, in fact.

Seems a little excessive, but maybe that's just me.

There was a thread about disintegrate in the rules forum a bit ago actually. Disintegrate takes a ranged touch attack, a fortitude saving throw, and must overcome SR. This players combo makes him take 3d8 damage in addition to these other factors but increases the potential damage.

Disintegrate looks really impressive but its restrictions make it not very good.

 

[Plane Sailing]

First, I understand that psionics are in the SRD, but I don't think it is fair to compare a psion to a wizard with the sudden feats disallowed.

The issue came up because I play in a campaign which is basically 'SRD only' (which amounts to PHB+XPH from a PC point of view), so that is the 'like for like' grounds on which I have to make the comparison.

I can understand that campaigns which allow a wider range of supplements to be used will perhaps not see this as an issue (essentially because the supplements introduce spells and feats which magnify arcane (and divine) caster powers), but as a published baseline I still think it is significant. Maybe it is what prompted designers to up the ante for for arcanists

(of course, the various metamagic rods pale into insignificance to a cleric with the destruction domain who has a 4,900gp block of incense of meditation... sure disintegrate is a 7th level spell for him, but a guaranteed 156 damage from disintegrate isn't too bad )

Cheers

 

[BryonD]

The issue came up because I play in a campaign which is basically 'SRD only' (which amounts to PHB+XPH from a PC point of view), so that is the 'like for like' grounds on which I have to make the comparison.

I can understand that campaigns which allow a wider range of supplements to be used will perhaps not see this as an issue (essentially because the supplements introduce spells and feats which magnify arcane (and divine) caster powers), but as a published baseline I still think it is significant. Maybe it is what prompted designers to up the ante for for arcanists

Well, you've ignored the rest of my point.

I disagree that Sudden Empower magnifies caster power, it just provides a different feat for a different effect. Yes, there is some broken stuff out there, but this feat is not one.

That within WotC publications the equivalent effect is there is a fair point. But even if you stick to what is ultimately an arbitrary division then the much more significant arguement that this whole issue boils down to how disintegrate works remains. Not allowing the equivalent effect in a given campaign has no more effect of how balanced that effect is then, for example, not allowing the paladin in a campaign changing the core balance of that class.

Save or take 33d6 is quite often no more effective than save or take 22d6. And both remain a minor nerfing of save or DIE.

(of course, the various metamagic rods pale into insignificance to a cleric with the destruction domain who has a 4,900gp block of incense of meditation... sure disintegrate is a 7th level spell for him, but a guaranteed 156 damage from disintegrate isn't too bad )

Ok, so that is two reasons this specific point on the psion isn't overpowered.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I disagree that Sudden Empower magnifies caster power, it just provides a different feat for a different effect. Yes, there is some broken stuff out there, but this feat is not one.

I'm surprised if you think that sudden empower is no more powerful than any of the standard PHB feats. It is measurably better than the standard empower on at least two counts (a) you can apply it to your highest level spells and (b) wizards can choose at casting time which spell to apply it to.

 

[Psion]

I'm surprised if you think that sudden empower is no more powerful than any of the standard PHB feats. It is measurably better than the standard empower on at least two counts (a) you can apply it to your highest level spells and (b) wizards can choose at casting time which spell to apply it to.

I would agree it's more powerful than standard metamagic feats.

However, I also think standard metamagic is a little on the costly side.

 

[BryonD]

I'm surprised if you think that sudden empower is no more powerful than any of the standard PHB feats. It is measurably better than the standard empower on at least two counts (a) you can apply it to your highest level spells and (b) wizards can choose at casting time which spell to apply it to.

And measureably weaker in that you spend a feat for an ability that may only be used 1/day.

Yes, for that one instant you are more powerful.
As with the nova/flameout debate regarding psions in general, the effective result of being one feat weaker the rest of the time balances it out.

 

[hamishspence]

Augment vs heighten

At most levels yes, augment is weaker. But in the 20+ levels things begin to get interesting. Compare save DC of 40th level wizard with Improved heighten and Epic spell slot feats with the save DC of 40th level psion. Then remember a psion has ALL of those feat slots usable for more useful feats. Going toe to toe with an epic dragon or an abomination will be harder for the wizard: hideously high save bonuses.

Of course, epic campaigns are rarer, and the psion lacks the versatility.

 

[Nifft]

At most levels yes, augment is weaker. But in the 20+ levels things begin to get interesting. Compare save DC of 40th level wizard with Improved heighten and Epic spell slot feats with the save DC of 40th level psion.

Epic levels? I'd worry about any character who sees his power being related to casting non-Epic Spells. Maybe when they run out of Epic Spell slots (or Epic Power slots)... but at 40th level, I'd expect that to be rare.

It would seem that Psions and Wizards become pretty darn similar in terms of creating Epic effects. The seeds are the same and all that.

But I don't have much actual experience in that range of levels, except for reading Sep II's story hour, so I could be totally wrong.

Thanks, -- N

 

[FoxWander]

Some minor points:


As previously mentioned, augmentation isn't as good as heighten: In addition to low-level powers being stopped by globes of invulnerability no matter how many points you sink into them, a handful of powers can't even be augmented to raise the save DC. A quick check through the first-level power list shows Distract, Psionic Grease, and Telempathic Projection as powers that give saves that can't be augmented.

After thinking about it I'm probably blinded by my own annoyance (ie- my perception that psions are tweaked to be subtly "better" than wizards). I never even considered that augmentation doesn't help with globes and such. It's probably another of those things about psionics whose big benefit one way is countered by the hard to notice big limitation another way- so, in the end, it balances. Although, enemies throwing up globes of invulnerability doesn't come up very often, at least not nearly as often as the ability to raise the save dc of your power will be extremely useful. Even if it cost more points to raise that dc (or even make the power itself effective at higher levels without auto-scaling damage) it still doesn't cost a feat to do it. So I don't know, if you consider the lack of auto-scaling damage also- I'm not sure who has the edge anymore. Maybe this is just something like someone else posted- it's not better or worse, just 'different.'

I think you're misinterpreting the rules hear. My reading of this is that the psicrystal has the effective HD equal to the psion's level, just as a familiar has effective HD equal to the Wizard's level. That's for determining effects and such, and has nothing to do with feats or skill points

I don't think I'm misinterpreting. It's pretty clear that familiars DO NOT gain actual hit dice as their master levels. Here's what the SRD says about familiar hit dice- "For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher." So, they have"effective" hit dice equal to their master's level for the purposes of avoiding spell effects like sleep and such, but not "actual" hit dice for the purposes of gaining feats.

Here's what the SRD says about psicrystal hit dice (from the psicrystal monster entry, the only place you can find anything about this)- "A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master. Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only levels in psion or wilder), its hit points are equal to half its master’s, and its saving throw bonuses are the same as its master’s." (emphasis and underlining my own)

There's no 'for the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice' language, just 'its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice'. That means actual hit dice. So they gain feats as they're master levels- just like animal companions and paladin mounts. In fact, familiars are the only 'companion creatures' that are specifically limited so as to NOT gain feats.