How do Psions compare to arcane casters?

[The_Ditto]

My experience:

I played in a campaign from level 1 to 15 as a Wilder/Constructor (3.5) alongside a (straight) Druid and a (straight) generalist Mage ...

I can count the encounters that I "dominated" as the Wilder on 1 hand ... I can't even begin to count the encounters that the mage and druid "dominated" ...

To answer the OP question: Is it "on par" with them?
Yep ... and from my experience, I'd say psionics is (if anything) weaker ...

Yes, there are "combos" that cause problems .. but that is true of Cleric's, Druids, Psionics, Mages, anything ...

And yes, I will admit, there is a big diff between psions and Wilders ... I haven't played a psion (yet) ...

 

[TarionzCousin]

I came to this thread curious about Psionics. IMO, it's been a good, fairly straightforward debate and I thank you all for your well-reasoned responses. All of the other players in my current campaign have psionic characters. I've seen some of this stuff in action, but I haven't examined it too closely. This thread helps.

It has also been entertaining to read about the guy who can't average dice rolls. I took two years of calculus and found it pretty easy, but Statistics can be confusing. I find myself sympathizing with this guy and wanting to hear more.

Finally, the last few posts got me investigating what Third Party psionics material is out there and I got confused. Does "Hyperconscious" include "Mindscapes 1 & 2"? How are these books/pdfs related? What do they add to Psionics?

 

[Deekin]

Finally, the last few posts got me investigating what Third Party psionics material is out there and I got confused. Does "Hyperconscious" include "Mindscapes 1 & 2"? How are these books/pdfs related? What do they add to Psionics?

Hyperconscious is an Adventure/sourcebook that updates a bunch of older psionic material, I think including Mindscapes. The other third party Book that I can think of is Untapped Potential by Dreamscarred press. UP is 100% pure psionic awesome, while still being balanced. The Power Astral Juggernaut has made me want to reformat my seer into a Shaper.

 

[FoxWander]

Reading thru this thread I see many good points, but, like most 'psionics vs. magic' threads, everyone's focusing on the "power level" comparisons which, I think, isn't the true difference between psionics and magic, which is this- in almost every way psionics are subtly or overtly better than magic.

I'll explain in just a sec, but first I have to address the the "power level" comparison. The 'psions going nova rule can own the game' vs. 'arcane uber-spells can own the game'. For the most part, I think this is a useless comparison, mainly because they are both true and can unbalance their respective classes depending on the style of campaign. If you have few encounters and plenty of opportunities to rest, psion's will rule, but the same goes for arance uber-spells. If you have more encounters then you have to balance your resources (I think casters get the edge here). So, power-level isn't an accurate comparison. SInce it varies so much with play style, overall psionics are "balanced".

Raw psionic power isn't the problem the (IMO), it's the fact that psionics is just, slightly (or way!) better than magic in almost every way. Spatula hit on the most obvious tweaks back on the first page, but skipped some of the subtleties that really tip the balance towards psionics. Here's a recap of Spatula's list (many of which have been discussed already so I don't want to re-hash them, I just ltist them for the cumulative effect towards psionics)

1- More higher level powers per day. (The 'blow thier wad' or 'going nova' problem. Again, only really a problem based on campaign style. This is inherent to the point-based system, not a problem of psionics themselves)

2- Built-in Energy Substitution with an added kicker advantage depending on energy type. So they get 'save type' substitution (fort or reflex), the extra DC/PR boost option and the bypass hardness option as well.

3- Built-in Heighten Spell.

4- A handful of over the top powers that break the rules for 'X effect at X level'. (Tactical mass damage effects, extra action effects, etc.)

5- Spontaneous "casting" without the "casting" time increase for adding meta effects or the restriction against Quicken

Those are Spatula's points, but consider these as well...

6- Psions (after their 8 hours of rest) require only a single round of concentration to regain all their power points for daily use. Other spontaneous casters require at least 15 minutes before they're good to go and preparation casters require a full hour!

7- The psicrystal requires a whole sublist for its advantages over a familiar...
A- Construct type, an obvious improvement over 'magical beast'- much sturdier and more survivable (a construct familiar requires a feat for casters)
B- Not that survivability matters- there are no negative effects to a psion for losing a psicrystal!
C- They gain hit dice as the psion levels and thus can gain feats.
D- They automatically speak at least one language.
E- Hardness 8 (as if the construct type wasn't good enough)
F- The 'sighted' ability allows them to see and hear everything within 40' even thru supernatural darkness.
G- A "telepathic" rather than an "empathic" link- full communication rather than "general emotional content." AND, at the same level a familiar can "speak with master", psicrystals can telepathically "speak" to anyone within 30'.
H- Eventually all psicrystals can fly (if the psion lets them)
I- Last but not least- Channel power. At 15th level psions can manifest thru their psicrystal at a distance of 1 mile!
H- I guess that wasn't last after all- I forgot the ability to cherry pick the skill bonus granted by the psicrystal without being stuck with a "bad" familiar. Also many of the skill boost are WAY more useful to "casters" than many familiar boosts.

8- No components to worry about- no gauno, no cricket legs and not one uber-expensive 'focus'! (psionics have "displays" but this can be dispensed with by a fairly easy concentration check)

9- (Already covered but bears re-mentioning) You can manifest psionics while grappled, bound, gagged OR wearing armor. No "arcane spell failure" to worry about, nor silence spells, etc..

10- "Summoned" astral constructs are A) constructs, obviously, with all those inherent benefits, B) custom built to your desires (though they do lack their own spells and powers- a BIG disadvantage over high level magical summonings) and C) automatically obey your commands. Magicians (meaning all MAGIC-based casters) must speak the creatures language or make handle animal checks to have a summoned creature do anything besides attack the thing the summoner points at. This is an obvious advantage if you want your summoned thing to do anything besides simply attack- such as serve as a mount, or dig a hole, or whatever.

11- Psionics "wands" (dorjes) aren't limited to 4th level effects.

12- Also, and this goes for pretty much all psionic items (and it's a pretty big boost, though again- subtle), they require a command thought to activate rather than a command word like most magic items. So again gagged, silenced, not a problem. Still a standard action that provokes AoO, but just slightly better.

13- Psionic Focus. Too much to go into but magicians get nothing like it and it opens up a plethora of spiffy abilities and feats that magicians just can't touch. The benefits are too numerous and too obvious to mention.

14- ....

Ugh! It's getting early and I'm tired. But as you can see, the 'power level' comparison is actually completely missing the point on the MAIN difference between psionics and magic. Psionics are just [better in almost every way! I'm sure there are tons of subtleties I didn't even come close to.

Now you might get from all this that I don't like psionics- but you're wrong. I'm most upset in that psionics feel more like what "fantasy magic" should be than actual magic does! If you picture the iconic wizard from the typical fantasy novel- the psion comes closer to actualizing that idea than a D&D wizard or sorcerer ever could. Strip out the 'psionics' and 'mentalism' fluff and the EPH "magic system" is far superior to the Vancian default of D&D.

The next edition of D&D should re-invent the psion as the "wizard" class, use the Warlock for "sorcerers" and then mold the beguiler/warmage/true-necromancer "specialist wizards" into the next edition "Psion". Wouldn't a Beguiler work better as the iconic "telepath"? Focus the Warmage on fire and you've got Charlie from Firestarter, focus on force effects and you get Akira.

Anyway, there's my two pence on the subject. I'm off to bed. (hopefully this didn't get too rambly towards the end- I'm to tired to proof read it before I post this.)

 

[The_Ditto]

1- More higher level powers per day. (The 'blow thier wad' or 'going nova' problem. Again, only really a problem based on campaign style. This is inherent to the point-based system, not a problem of psionics themselves)

I wouldn't call it a "problem" ... it's just "different" ... the knee-jerk reaction when encountering things "different" however, does seem to be to call it a "problem" ...
I know some here do not agree and that's fine, but I'll say it again: this "problem" isn't unique to psionics - although it may be easier to do ...

2- Built-in Energy Substitution with an added kicker advantage depending on energy type. So they get 'save type' substitution (fort or reflex), the extra DC/PR boost option and the bypass hardness option as well.

Again, not a uniquely psionic issue, but yes, it is one area which psionics does better ... clerics get a ton of healing spells, wizards don't, does that mean clerics are better? (based on this point alone?) no ... (based on many other points - maybe ... not going to debate clerics vs wizards .. hehe )

Yes, they are "different" ... but as a counter-point ... wizards get a ton of force effect spells ... those are not affected by most resistances, and psions can't compare to that ... so are wizard's "better" because of that?? Nope .. they are "different" ...

3- Built-in Heighten Spell.

True - but they do still have to pay for it when they want it .. ok, maybe it does save them a feat ... But considering a wizard gets a lot more out of a lower level slot and a psion actually has to pay for it ... I think I'll call those even ...
(ie 10th level wizard using a 3rd level slot (fireball) does 10d6 dmg. a 10th level psion using the "equivilent" 3rd level slot (ie 5 pp) gets 5d6 (or maybe 5d6+5 dmg) ....)
Again ... wizard is better in this point, so does that make wizard better overall? Nope .. just different ....

4- A handful of over the top powers that break the rules for 'X effect at X level'. (Tactical mass damage effects, extra action effects, etc.)

The same can be said for arcane and divine as well - very easily ... again, this is not unique to psionics ... this is something any DM has to watch for ...

5- Spontaneous "casting" without the "casting" time increase for adding meta effects or the restriction against Quicken

Yep ... sorcerers done properly ... I think this is a good thing, and IMHO, sorcerers should follow suit ... But you are right, as written, the sorcerer is severly gimped in this ... note that wizards are not affected by this ...

6- Psions (after their 8 hours of rest) require only a single round of concentration to regain all their power points for daily use. Other spontaneous casters require at least 15 minutes before they're good to go and preparation casters require a full hour!

True ... I have nothing to say on this one ... I always thought it a bit ... "odd" ...

7- The psicrystal requires a whole sublist for its advantages over a familiar...

Psicrystals are typically seen as pretty "sucky" ... the construct type is as much a hindrance as a boon ... since a lot of effects cannot target it ...
I've never really found the psicrystal any significantly stronger than familiars ...

8- No components to worry about- no gauno, no cricket legs and not one uber-expensive 'focus'! (psionics have "displays" but this can be dispensed with by a fairly easy concentration check)

Most games I'm in don't really pay too much attention to material components ... so I've never seen this as a big issue ... for expensive components, the psionic equivilents have an xp cost .. personally, I'd rather have the component ...

9- (Already covered but bears re-mentioning) You can manifest psionics while grappled, bound, gagged OR wearing armor. No "arcane spell failure" to worry about, nor silence spells, etc..

Not unique to psionics .. any caster/manifester has to make a concentration check to be able to do it ... any wizard I've ever taken has always had an "escape plan" for being grappled, and this was no different when I was a Wilder ... I made sure I had access to a spell/power that could get me out of a grapple quickly and easily.
In both cases, I needed a concentration check ... so again, I don't see much difference between the two here.

10- "Summoned" astral constructs are A) constructs, obviously, with all those inherent benefits, B) custom built to your desires (though they do lack their own spells and powers- a BIG disadvantage over high level magical summonings) and C) automatically obey your commands. Magicians (meaning all MAGIC-based casters) must speak the creatures language or make handle animal checks to have a summoned creature do anything besides attack the thing the summoner points at. This is an obvious advantage if you want your summoned thing to do anything besides simply attack- such as serve as a mount, or dig a hole, or whatever.

Again, I was in a campaign playing a Wilder/Constructor (arguably the best way of spitting out powerful constructs ... especially ahead of the curve) ... alongside a Druid ...
Believe me, the Druid's summons were much more effective than my constructs well over ~70% of the time ... I had a couple of fights where I managed to do well .. but it was the Druid's swimmers in water than were better than my swimmers, his flyers could fly circles around mine ...
True, if we ended up in a straight up land slug-fest .. those were the times I managed to keep up - if not excel ... but even then, his Elementals could match me easily ... and he was spitting out Huge sized critters before I was ...

They look good on paper, but try to avoid the knee-jerk reaction .. play them out sometime ... try them out first before jumping to conclusions ...

11- Psionics "wands" (dorjes) aren't limited to 4th level effects.

True ... this may be a good point .. but I haven't yet seen this abused in any way that even compares to .. say .. Metamagic rods ...
Again ... wizards have the edge with Metamagic rods ..
Psions have the edge with Dorjes ...
Ok ... and?
(this can go on forever ... comparing them like this isn't going to prove anything ... except that they are different ... )

12- Also, and this goes for pretty much all psionic items (and it's a pretty big boost, though again- subtle), they require a command thought to activate rather than a command word like most magic items. So again gagged, silenced, not a problem. Still a standard action that provokes AoO, but just slightly better.

Actually, aren't most magic items Use Activated?? (ie Gloves of Storing, Bag of Holding, Helm of Teleportation .. etc)

13- Psionic Focus. Too much to go into but magicians get nothing like it and it opens up a plethora of spiffy abilities and feats that magicians just can't touch. The benefits are too numerous and too obvious to mention.

Reserve Feats ....

Ugh! It's getting early and I'm tired. But as you can see, the 'power level' comparison is actually completely missing the point on the MAIN difference between psionics and magic. Psionics are just [better in almost every way! I'm sure there are tons of subtleties I didn't even come close to.

No, but they are different .. that's what all these points end up showing ... and I think that's ok ... Clerics and Wizards are different .. as are Druids ... so why can't Psions be different? Would it be better if they were a cookie-cutout of Wizards? Personally - I don't think so ...

Now you might get from all this that I don't like psionics- but you're wrong. I'm most upset in that psionics feel more like what "fantasy magic" should be than actual magic does!

I agree with that, I do really enjoy the flavour of psionics over traditional arcane or divine magic ... it's the difference that really draws me to it ..

 

[BryonD]

IME the items you listed, to one degree or another, are much less significant in play than you suggest. Some of them I think add up to a great big ZERO advantage (constructs are not better than familairs in play {most require a feat payment}, borken powers are no worse than broken spells and both are easy to solve, magic items differences are not an issue)

Manifest when grappled is a big deal when it comes into play. But is meaningless the other 98% of the time. Psicrystal better than familiar, meh... never been an issue and having a more "social" helper is quite a perk that doesn't show through in mechanics. Energy substitution is an issue that has been covered. Some people don't have a problem with it there are quite a few very easy fixes if you do.

Free heighten. Yeah, that is quite nice. But you over looked the flip side of it and it is a really big flip side. NO POWER SCALING. This drawback alone brings the psion right back down to earth. A 5th level wizard or sorcerer gets more bang for their 1st level spell slot than a 1st level wizard does. When a wizard gains a level, not only does he gain new spell slots, but every single spell slot he has gets better. If a psion spends one point for a 1st level power, he gets the same effect no matter how many levels he has gained. A PP is a PP regardless of level. The wizard's free compounding is a really big advantage that psions constantly pay the price for not having.

 

[Nifft]

SInce it varies so much with play style, overall psionics are "balanced".

Cool.

Raw psionic power isn't the problem the (IMO), it's the fact that psionics is just, slightly (or way!) better than magic in almost every way.

In my experience, it's better in some ways, and worse in other ways. The total lack of Necromancy, Illusion, and missing effects like gate and planar binding, really hurts at times. Illusion in particular is really strong!

3- Built-in Heighten Spell.

Not quite. A Psion is seriously hindered by a globe of invulnerability, which a Sorcerer who had Heighten Spell could punch right through. Strictly speaking, Psions have no way to Heighten their powers. Not even the option. They can do more damage as though they had higher-level powers, but things that depend on the level of a power look at the actual power's level. Which a Sorc/Wiz can change, and a Psion cannot.

7- The psicrystal requires a whole sublist for its advantages over a familiar...

Well, look at it this way. A 1st level Wizard gets two free feats: Scribe Scroll and Summon Familiar. The Psion gets one bonus feat. So, if he pays for a Psicrystal, it should be better than a Familiar.

10- "Summoned" astral constructs are A) constructs, obviously, with all those inherent benefits, B) custom built to your desires (though they do lack their own spells and powers- a BIG disadvantage over high level magical summonings) and C) automatically obey your commands. Magicians (meaning all MAGIC-based casters) must speak the creatures language or make handle animal checks to have a summoned creature do anything besides attack the thing the summoner points at. This is an obvious advantage if you want your summoned thing to do anything besides simply attack- such as serve as a mount, or dig a hole, or whatever.

Right, but the short duration prevents most creative uses. Wizards who want to get creative have access to planar binding. Psions can't do that.

Now you might get from all this that I don't like psionics- but you're wrong. I'm most upset in that psionics feel more like what "fantasy magic" should be than actual magic does! If you picture the iconic wizard from the typical fantasy novel- the psion comes closer to actualizing that idea than a D&D wizard or sorcerer ever could. Strip out the 'psionics' and 'mentalism' fluff and the EPH "magic system" is far superior to the Vancian default of D&D.

I agree, mostly. Some people like Vancian, though, so IMHO it should be kept as an option.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Psion]

Reading thru this thread I see many good points, but, like most 'psionics vs. magic' threads, everyone's focusing on the "power level" comparisons which, I think, isn't the true difference between psionics and magic, which is this- in almost every way psionics are subtly or overtly better than magic.

No, they really aren't.

You hasten to cite the advantages of psionic, but fail to cite the advantages of magic. Many of these points have been brought up in this thread already, but you have failed to acknowledge their presence.

1. Better access to "combo builders" - things like scry, teleport, invisibility, fly are all abilities that make wizards into problematic enemies. Even a specialist wizard only loses access to a fraction of these, whereas psions only has access to a small fraction of them.
2. Compared to wizards, much smaller power/spell availability. The tactical flexibility of wizards just can't be touched. With the 15 minute rule (or alacritous cogitation), the preparation rule is not the impediment it seems.
3. Psionic focus is a limited resource, NOT a benefit. Wizards have plenty of access to their own feats psions can't touch. But psionic focus was conceived as a resource pool to mitigate the negative effects of lacking free scaling. Feats tapping this resource pool are pretty nifty, but anything that expends your psionic focus prohibits you from using any other feature that taps the focus until you can regain it.
4. Lack of access to spells/powers that circumvent traditional defenses. At higher levels, wizards begin getting spells that do not allow saves or spell resistance. Psions have no equivalent.
5. Inability to augment the party. Psions lack many powers that enhance or protect others. For example, buff spells only equivalent is animal affinity, which is on a discipline list and is a personal effect.
6. Psions DON'T get heighten for free. Scaling DC is a partial compensation for lack of free damage scaling and typically only applies to damaging powers (and then, only some). The actual level of power does not change. This leaves psions vulnerable to effects that depend on the level of the power, like globe of invulnerability.
7. That dorjes aren't limited in level cap is of little consequence if you consider that unless you use the (very optional) Erudite, a psion has little to gain from taking the feat because a psion already has the benefit of continual access to all the powers they know. Craft wand is of greater use to prepared casters like sorcerers or wizards because it lets them overcome the preparation limitation. (And then, I had considered the Erudite weak. If I start to see it in context of the item creation feats, all of a sudden it seems balanced.)

I could go on, but I tire too, having been through the wringer over on the rules forum here many times. Anyone who thinks psions are overpowered should see these threads:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=416446

Note here that I do acknowledge that the psionics board over at wizards is biased and have a tendency to defend almost any psionic element as balanced... which would be unusual, because not all magic elements are balanced. I happen to believe many things that the wizards' psionics boards at large do not, such as the (Illithid) Slayer IS too good and most arcane PrCs published under 3.5 are balanced (anyone who thinks that having greater spell focus (abjuration) as a prerequisite is not a hit has another thing coming...) Suffice it to say that on both sides of the DM screen, actual experience reveals that to anyone who knows how to play either competently and understand their weaknesses and strengths, psionics and arcane magic are both viable choices for characters.

 

[Deekin]

Also, I would like point out that the psionic equivalent of staffs uses up the headband slot. That's why djores arn't capped.

IME, my 3rd level psion, cannot hold a candle to our party Duskblade in terms of Nova and Damage output.

Blade of Blood -5 hp, Shocking Grasp channeled thru the weapon, and a strike with a Guisarme.

3d6+3d6+2d4+4 Damage. He can do this twice per day.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The 11th level psion player in a campaign I'm in has just realised that he can can overchannel and throw out a 33d6 disintegrate. Several times, in fact.

Seems a little excessive, but maybe that's just me.